[razirafi]

Hello to all. I have been working on trying to solve a transmission problem of a 2005 beetle with the 09G transmission. At first the problem was very harsh shifts from 3rd to 2nd gear and after reading a whole lot of discussions on different forums, I replaced the valve body with a rebuilt one. After the installation and filling up with ATF (following the procedures from the 09G service manual) I have noticed that when I put it in D, it will not engage 1st gear and after a few seconds it engages 5th gear. It will not downshift or upshift. I connected a scan tool and got the error code for the transmission output shaft speed sensor (signal implausible). I cleared all the codes and tried running again and it still gives this error code. I scoped the wires of both the input shaft speed sensor and the output shaft speed sensor at the TCM terminals and I get well defined square wave signals. The output shaft signal will show only when the wheels are turning (vehicle on the lift). I took a short video of this behavior so it will be easier for others to see the problem. Can anyone help me out with this?

09G abnormal shift - YouTube

09G limp mode (?) - YouTube

 

[jfoj]

A few questions for you.

1. Once you replaced the valve body, did these problem start immediately?? Meaning has the transmission ever worked properly with the replacement valve body?

2. I know the 09G trans fairly well from the valve body replacement in mine and I know it would be VERY easy to connect the wiring up incorrectly to all the solenoids.

3. Where did you get the valve body? Did you have yours reworked or did you get an exchange valve body?

4. Assuming your transmission had this problem from the moment the valve body was swapped, I am guessing you have either improper connections and/or pinched wiring somewhere??

I know that I forgot to make a connection to a solenoid on my valve body and I immediately had error codes and it was pretty obvious once I dropped the pan, but at the same time, I can see where incorrect connections would not trigger a problem until it was time for the trans to shift.

 

[razirafi]

A few questions for you.

1. Once you replaced the valve body, did these problem start immediately?? Meaning has the transmission ever worked properly with the replacement valve body?

2. I know the 09G trans fairly well from the valve body replacement in mine and I know it would be VERY easy to connect the wiring up incorrectly to all the solenoids.

3. Where did you get the valve body? Did you have yours reworked or did you get an exchange valve body?

4. Assuming your transmission had this problem from the moment the valve body was swapped, I am guessing you have either improper connections and/or pinched wiring somewhere??

I know that I forgot to make a connection to a solenoid on my valve body and I immediately had error codes and it was pretty obvious once I dropped the pan, but at the same time, I can see where incorrect connections would not trigger a problem until it was time for the trans to shift.

Hello jfoj,

1) yes these problems started immediately once the valve body was replaced.

2) well, I am the second one to tackle this problem and before I did, another guy took out the valve body and re-installed it back. I did take photos of the wiring to the solenoids before taking it off.

3) the valve body was ordered online. all I did was supervised the installation with reference to the photos that I took.

4) it may be possible that the wiring was mixed up by the first guy who took it original valve body off but I did check it against the service manual. continuity checks that I made were only for the output shaft speed sensors. I do recall that when I scanned it and it gave the implausible signal error for the output shaft speed sensor, it also mentioned "short to another valve"

 

[jfoj]

I would think likely the wiring is messed up?

Since someone else pulled the valve body for the first go around, I would likely think the problem may have occurred during round 1. Also the wiring is not very robust and the connectors/wiring can easily be damaged.

If it was my car, I would drain the fluid and save it, drop the pan and check all of the wiring very closely. Then I would likely disconnect on solenoid at a time and see what error shows up on the scan tool. This way you can verify each connection to the solenoid.

The only issue is I am not sure the solenoid description in the manual is accurate?? I recall the error I had when 1 of the connectors was not fully seated stated X and when looking the diagram, it was actually solenoid Y, meaning it did not appear that things were agreeing.

Luckily I was able to find the poorly seated connector, connected with the trans pan still off and was able to confirm there were no more errors.

I may be able to PDF some solenoid info to you, but if you have any pictures of the wiring you can post up, I might?? be able to comment from memory, but there are about 12 connections to the valve body and there are a few that are easy to mix up.

 

[razirafi]

ok I understand and hopefully it is just a messed up wiring. I will take some close up photos of the wiring as it is now and post it up so that you may have a look at it. I will also do what you suggested and disconnect the solenoids one at a time and check with the scan tool for verification. thanks so far.

 

[jfoj]

As I recall there are 2 connectors with rubber tops that go to a temperature sensor and a pressure sensor, I doubt these are the mixed up wires??

I also recall there was 1 larger piston and maybe spring that went into the transmission body that requires use of Vasoline or something to keep the piston and spring in the transmission while the valve body is put into place.

What I would do for now is check all the wiring and disconnect 1 solenoid at a time, check the code on the scan tool and make yourself a matrix so hopefully when you get more info you may be able to figure out if there are swapped wires and which ones.

I will try to PDF some documents a bit later this evening that may be helpful and see if I have any notes from when I had a bad connection.

 

[razirafi]

I traced all the wiring that connects to the valve body and to the TCM and all are OK. Checked and double-checked again before closing up the oil pan and all is good, no pinched wires and connections were correct. I still get the same "transmission output speed sensor signal implausible" error and transmission goes to 5th gear and stays there. Should the output shaft rotate when the transmission is placed in D with the brakes on? Another thing is why does this error come out only when in D and not in R?

 

[jfoj]

I traced all the wiring that connects to the valve body and to the TCM and all are OK. Checked and double-checked again before closing up the oil pan and all is good, no pinched wires and connections were correct.

How did you trace the wiring? I know that the documentation vs the codes generated did not all seem to match up when I had a problem with a connection on one of my solenoids.

I still get the same "transmission output speed sensor signal implausible" error and transmission goes to 5th gear and stays there. Should the output shaft rotate when the transmission is placed in D with the brakes on? Another thing is why does this error come out only when in D and not in R?

I would not expect the output shaft to rotate when the car is in drive with the brakes on. It is possible this could happen if one of the axles has backed out and it not making contact to the differential. I do not think the speedometer will register as I think it uses wheel sensors and not an output shaft sensor in the transmission?

Will the car move? Is the car drivable?

 

[razirafi]

I traced the wiring using document SSP_291_d2 (for an Audi TT) and ELSA 4.0. The Jetta diagram was only used for the pinout of the TCM connector and the track wiring diagram in ELSA was used for the actual checking and they did match. The continuity test was done from the TCM connector to the connectors of the solenoids.

The car is driveable but it stays only in 5th gear. I think too that the speedo will not register wihtout any vehicle movement but in this case it does move slightly and goes back down to zero. One thing that I think will cause this is if the speed signal is sent to the instrument cluster and other related modules through the data bus (K-Line or CAN?) and there is something that is creating a problem on this data bus.

Could it be possible too that the solenoid that is responsible for shifting to first gear is not functioning so that is why it goes to limp mode and 5th gear? I am thinking about this because when I put it in D nothing happens (I cannot feel any gear engaging) until it goes into 5th gear and I feel the gear engaging.

 

[kenvwjetta]

09g same problem

Hello,

I have the exact same problem with my Jetta 06 2.5l 09g transmission after replacing the valve body. Did you find a fix for your car? I'm about to replace the g195 sensor to see if this would work? Please let me know if you found a solution. Thanks for your help.

Ken

 

[jfoj]

Did the code show up immediately upon reinstalling the valve body?

If so, likely a connector was missed or connected to the wrong position.

This is why I recommend turning the ignition on, but not starting the engine before the trans pan is installed to make sure there are no errors before putting the pan on and filling with fluid.

I even missed a connection on my valve body as I was so focused on routing all wires and making sure all the connectors and brackets were in the proper location.

This was an ask me how I know moment. Again, not a hard thing to do drain the new fluid into a clean container then to drop the pan and find the connection that was not fully plugged in.

One thing I recall the code and the solenoid that I expected to be disconnected did not seem to match up, but everything worked once the 1 connection was properly connected.

 

[kenvwjetta]

Hello and thank you for replying.

The valve body was replaced with a rebuilt unit because of hard downshift and eventually would not shift past second gear. There were three code P0721, P0722, P0723 at the beginning.

I took pictures before the valve body was removed for reference.

I'm 100% sure that every connector are where they should be. I double checked every connection and even made a diagram(color coded by wire) to not make a mistake when i install the rebuilt valve body.

The only code that come on now is P0721. I cleared the code after installation of valve body and code only come on when car goes to 5th gear on Drive.

My car behave exactly like the beetle above.

I did drive through some high water(heavy rain) a few month ago and the car
sputter a litter but was ok afterwards. I did check the connections on the transmission and they seems dry.

Should i buy the output sensor? I removed the sensor and it looks exactly like the one in this post above. Can it be bench tested?

Any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Ken

 

[razirafi]

Update guys...after quite a long time of analyzing and almost deciding to give up, I decided to open up the 09G and have a look inside. So we disassembled this tranny and found some burned clutches and scorched pistons. Then I made a list of the parts that needed to be replaced but ended up purchasing a Master Repair Kit from Macko Transmissions. When the package arrived, we replaced all damaged items and reassembled the tranny. Installed it back into the vehicle, filled the 09G with new oil, did the reset and relearn procedures, and test drove the vehicle. After a few days the shifting improved dramatically and now it is shifting very smoothly with all the previous problems gone.

I did not replace the output shaft speed sensor as it tested OK with an oscilloscope. The waveform was perfect.

 

[jfoj]

Raz,

Thanks for your update, I was going to respond earlier today to Ken, but I was somewhat at a loss on where to head with a response. Still somewhat not sure what to say.

I searched around a bit and it did seem that some that had this issue replaced the sensors and still did not have a resolution.

I think 5th gear is 1:1 ratio and maybe this is when the software compares the input to output transmission speeds and maybe there is a problem with a slipping clutch inside the transmission.

The problem with ANY automatic transmission is how to measure and determine how much metal and clutch debris in the bottom of the pan is acceptable and how much it too much or an indicator of a problem. This is kind of hard to actually quantify??

So for Ken, suggest you read around and think back about how much clutch material and metal was in the pan when the valve body was repaired/replaced.

 

[billymade]

Got any pics of the worn or damaged parts? Pics might really be helpful; to others in the future, its always good to try to understand... typical wear/fail points in parts that fail allot around here. Inquiring minds/eyeballs; want to know!

PS: what is your sense of the quality of the Master Repair Kit; from Macko Transmissions? Also, what did you end up spending on the rebuild project?

 

[razirafi]

I did take photos of the rebuild process but they are in my work laptop at the shop. I will post them up for others to see. The Macko repair kit is quite good in quality but before ordering, you need to know the thickness of the K1 clutches as they sell different thicknesses. The range of thicknesses of the K1 friciton clutches in this tranny was .043 to .053 inches so the master kit that I ordered was the 15006 with the .059 inch K1 friction clutches.

 

[kenvwjetta]

09g with p0721 code only drive in 5th gear?

Thanks again for the response.

I did notice some tiny metal shaving at the bottom of pan the first two times that i drop the pan to check the wiring.

How difficult is the rebuilt and how long does it take?

Did you also buy the manual with the master kit?

How do you find out the K1 size?

I have spent about $1000 so far with the valve body and 3 set of oil/gasket to fix this problem.

Does the master kit include everything needed for the rebuild or is there additional parts to complete it.

Are there any special tool beside basic home tools needed for the rebuild?

Thanks for your help and i would love to see the pics of the parts that was replaced.

Ken

 

[razirafi]

Initially I thought that this rebuild process would be a tough one so I read up on all the material about the 09G that I could get my hands on. I also watched videos on YouTube to get a general idea of how the pros rebuild these units.

09G / TF60SN Transmission - YouTube

I took photos along the way and paid special attention to the location and position of the bearings, sealing rings, and cleanliness too. I used a large table to place the parts on and arranged them in sequence. I did not purchase the manual with the rebuild kit. The master kit that I purchased contained all the parts needed to do a full rebuild. It contained the friction clutches and the steels, paper gaskets for the valve body, oil pan gasket, check balls, oil strainer, O-rings, bonded pistons, everything.

As for the thickness of the K1 frictions, I used a Mitutoyo vernier caliper to measure each one and since this tranny is not new, I opted for the .051" frictions which was the closest to my measurements.

We did the rebuild slowly and very carefully, checking and double-checking to see that we did it correctly. After a days work, we wrapped it in stretch packaging material to prevent contaminants from entering the case. It took us about two full days to replace the damaged internals and assemble (and torqued) the tranny (as the tranny was already on the bench while waiting for the parts to arrive).

No special tools are really needed although you need to have torx bits as torx-head bolts are used together with hex bolts.

 

[kenvwjetta]

09g rebuild

Thanks again for the info.

The master kit from Makco listed for my car is exactly the same as yours (part #15506). The kit comes with a K1 of 0.076". After measuring my K1, i need to let them know to make an exchange?

I'm going to remove the transmission this weekend and inspect the inside.
1. Do i have to remove anything else in the car to remove the transmission? Any suggestion will be helpful. Thanks.

2. Is it obvious to see the damage? What should i look for?

3. Does the master kit come with any instruction? Did you rebuild by removing parts and exchange? Did you use all of the rebuild parts?

Sorry for so many questions. My only experience with transmission was watching my brother rebuild a Ford bronco II 4 wheel drive when i was 14. I can basically maintain my car without going to the dealership so far.

If you have the step by step picture or write up for yours, could you please post them or send them to me?

Thanks again.

Ken

 

[kenvwjetta]

09g rebuild

Sorry, typo on part from Makco. It is #15006)

Ken