NewBeetle.org Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone. Sorry my first post is under these circumstances but I would really like some expert opinions on our Beetle.
I usually dabble in aircooled VWs ( 67 and 69 Karmann Ghias ) but we bought this car for my girlfriend since shes always wanted one and our SUV doesn't get the best of gas mileage.
We bought her 2001 New Beetle in March. It's a 2 Liter , 5 speed with 114K miles. When we got it the car had a little issue that upon starting it would stutter and shake for about 2-5 second and then idle and drive perfect. The CEL was on. The previous owner said it needed an O2 sensor and upon doing the research it seemed that O2 sensor failure was common with these cars.
Well been driving the car since then without replacing the sensor or looking further into it because we really haven't had any issues besides the car shaking a bit at start up.
Last week on my way to work i stopped to get a drink at the gas station. When i got back into the car it would not start. Seemed like it wanted to start but the battery was dead/dying. I had someone help with a jump start and off it started like normal. This was strange because the car started right up 10 minutes before when I left home.
Got to work 2 miles down the road (i work at a car restoration shop) and took the battery out to hook it up to the batter charger. The charger showed it was perfectly charged and it had a solid 12.5 volts. So I cleaned up the battery terminals really good , put the battery back in. Tried to start it half a dozen times to test it and every time it started up just fine. Confused I resumed my work day.
8 Hours later leaving work the car started right up. But as i get some speed (5-10 mph) the car was hesitating no matter how much gas i gave it. Major loss of power and stuttering. For example it would go from 10-12 mph , stutter and hesitate for a few second , go from 12-15 , hesitate and stutter some more , 15-17 etc... I could not get the car past 30 MPH in 4th gear. Eventually the car correct itself after 2-3 minutes of this nonsense and it drove home like normal.
Next day , car start like normal. We went out to eat , got gas everything was pretty much normal.
Next day (today) Car starts like normal , went to dinner , starts like normal. The went to buy some groceries and when we got back to the car again....car would not start. I checked the battery terminals we nice and tight and clean. All checks out good. No loose plug wires. nothing unusual. With the key on accessory all light , radio , electronics worked but upon cranking it just would not even turn over. I was able to roll the car and do a roll start ( drop the clutch in gear from a roll ) and the car started. Shaked and stuttered for 3-5 seconds and everything was back to normal. Drove home normally. No loss of power , no shaking , nothing wrong. When i got home I turned the car off and started it a few times. Always started up like normal.

So now I'm confused.

1) I really doubt the battery is bad
2) Really doubt the alternator is bad

My assumptions

1) starter is going out + 02 sensor still needs replaced
2) O2 sensor is giving me all these problems (maybe the 100+ degree Texas weather is effecting it extra)
3) Some other electrical issue I'm not aware of yet.

Anyone have had a similar issue?
Its hard to pin point because its such an intermittent problem.
The CEL and the shaking for a couple of second on start up have always been on this car but from March until last week its never cause any issues.

Any and all input would be great. Tomorrow I will clean up the engine bay (sensors and air way) since the engine bay is really dusty. I will also test the alternator and battery again.

Thanks in advance for your input.


-Marco
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
i may be totally off but last week i went to work parked my bug and came back out for grub went to turn the car on it shook and did not turn on (i have a automatic) turned out to be the fuel pump swapped it out and the fuel pump relay as well to be sure and now it works fine, or it could be a dirty MAF sensor as well, good luck
 

·
Super smart senior member
Joined
·
857 Posts
When you try to start and it wont turn over do you hear one audible CLICK or rapid clicking?

One click means your starter solenoid is kerfuked so you might as well replace the whole starter, cheap fix.

rapid clicks means you probably have a negative problem, check the cables on the battery and follow them to the power center then check for busted fuses or melted wire.


As for the stuttering, unplug the MAF and start the car, does it run fine? If so its the maf, if not I would replace the pre cat converter o2 sensor (actually im not sure pre-or post cat). If THAT doesnt work we need to look for other air leaks or perhaps a throttle body is gunked up.


Keep us posted!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,753 Posts
Here's a little Oxygen Sensor 101
Oxygen sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
quite possibly you have trashed the Cat and done other engine damage running with the bad O2 Sensor (bad idea!). How can you work around cars daily and not believe that continued operation with a faulty O2 Sensor(s) is not going to cause other problems and possible engine damage? Those sensors don't simply exist to comply with or make the EPA happy!

You stated the previous owner said... Trusting soul, you are! Have you not pulled the stored codes to get the information for yourself? You don't indicate if it is the upstream or downstream sensor, I assume you don't even know, but regardless, you need to pull the codes and have a look see. If it is the O2 Sensor(s), replace it (them) and see how she starts and runs.

Once you get past this/these issue(s), you need to immediately address the timing belt and water pump. If you haven't proof these have been done, you're living on barrowed time. The timing belt is way past due and upon failure (inevitable), its' failure will trash the engine and you won't have to worry about O2 Sensors and the like.

While many cars/engines don't require ongoing maintenance like the NB, these cars do, although no engines are designed to ignore CELs.

Get the codes, put them up here, and we will help you get Her little Bug the help it needs.

Welcome, both of you, to the Org!
http://newbeetle.org/forums/new-member-forum/51021-newbie-welcome-kit.html

MORAV
 

·
5/23/10 <3
Joined
·
10,918 Posts
Autozone and the like will pull the codes for free. I'd start there. Just because the PO says that the code means something, you don't know for sure until you get the codes pulled yourself. Also, get the code numbers (Pxxx) and not just the descriptions. The numbers will really help diagnose more than the description, as the they can be wrong from a generic OBDII reader. You can also have them check your battery and alternator while you are there.

MORAV is also correct...do you know if the timing belt and water pump have been done? That is of utmost importance if not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
708 Posts
Like Morav said, get the car scanned, first. Autozone will do it for free. My car did something similar to yours. It was a cheap fix. The temp sensor was flaking, and every once in a while it wouldn't start, when it would start it ran like crap. Not saying that's your problem, just similar.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,753 Posts
To my defence we restore European cars from the 30s-60s. Not to many cars with 02 sensors need restorations :D
Not to familiar with newer cars as this is the first 0bd2 car ive owner :eek:

But you are right. It should have been done. This is more common sense then lack of knowledge. It's just been pretty rough this year finacially and been putting important car maintenance on the back burner.
Now it seems to be biting me in the ass.
Maybe I came off a little rough on you, and I can appreciate financial problems. But the reality is, this is a vehicle, a novelty vehicle at that, that demands certain maintenance be performed or you are putting the vehicle's engine at great risk. The TB & WP issue is a very serious, for real thing, and is one of them.

First things first though, get the codes, put them up here, and we will help walk you through the most cost efficient ways to deal with them. Let's hope it's not TOO BIG of a bite in your ass and work to make it as painless as possible.

M.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Ok. Got the codes pulled at auto zone. Gpt 3 of them :mad:

P0171

- Definition: System too lean , bank 1
- Explanation: Low fuel pressure or volume
-Probable causes:
1) Faulty H02S
2) Large vacuum leak
3) Faulty MAF sensor

P0113

- Definition: Intake ait temperature (IAT) sensor 1 circuit high
-Explanation: Open or short circuit condition
-Probably cause:
1) Poor electrical conncetion
2) Faulti AIT sensor

P0101

- Definition: Mass or volume air flow sensor circuit , range / performance
-Explanation: Air duct tube damaged
-Probable cause:
1) Large vacuum leak on engine
2) Faulty MASS sensor (isn't MASS same as MAF?)



That's all. I know the generic Autozone descriptions do not always mean what they say but I would put my money that the MAF is out as well as a O2 sensor. The reader did not say which one could be bad.
Lastly. I cannot hear any vacuum leaks so I don't feel this is the issue but if I had to spray around looking for a leak where would be the most common places to get vacuum leaks on these cars?
Thanks again for everyones suggestions and help!
 

·
5/23/10 <3
Joined
·
10,918 Posts
P0171 usually points to the MAF.
16555/P0171/000369 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Lean
Possible Causes

* Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) defective
* Intake System Leak(s)

Possible Solutions

* Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
* Check Fuel Pressure Regulation
* Check Fuel Pump
* Check Injectors
* Check Intake System for Leaks
* Check Exhaust System for Leaks
* Check Secondary Air System for Leaks
* Check Vacuum Pipes for Leaks


Second code is for your intake air temp sensor

16497/P0113/000275 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42): Signal too High
Possible Symptoms

* Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON

Possible Causes

* Fuse(s) faulty
* Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) faulty
* Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) faulty

Possible Solutions

* Check Fuse(s)
* Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42)
* Check/Replace Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42)

Third code is also for the MAF

16485/P0101/000257 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Implausible Signal
Possible Symptoms

* Loss of Power
* Erratic Idle

Possible Causes

* Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) faulty
* Air Leak(s) after Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
* Intake Air Filter dirty/faulty
* Ground Spots corroded or Paint Residue
* Wiring and/or Connections from/to Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) faulty

Possible Solutions

* Check Intake Air Filter
* Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
* Check Ground Spots
* Check Wiring and/or Connections from/to Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)


I would say MAF and not an O2 sensor. Nothing points specifically to an O2 sensor (there are other codes that will typcially point to them). That intake air temp sensor seems like it could cause some problems as well. You can try cleaning the MAF rather than replacement and see if it helps things. You can also unplug it and see if things improve on the car. If they do, then you know the MAF needs to be taken care of for sure.

(I got the code info from here: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,753 Posts
P0171 usually points to the MAF.
16555/P0171/000369 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Lean
Possible Causes

* Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) defective
* Intake System Leak(s)

Possible Solutions

* Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) This check determines functionality of MAF sensor. Multimeter or voltmeter, and diagnostic scan tool required.
* Check Fuel Pressure Regulation This check is done by checking system pressures and will not only check the fuel pressure regulator, but the fuel pump check valve and the fuel injectors for internal leaks. Fuel pressure guage with a range of 0-6 bar (approx 0-100 psi), misc adapters (All availale from VW)
* Check Fuel Pump This check determines that the fuel pump is operating properly and that the delivery rate is within specifications. This check must preceed the Fuel Pressure Regulation check. Fuel pressure guage with shut-off valve and a range of 0-6 bar (approx 0-100 psi), fused jumper wire with switch, misc adapters, fuel resistant metric measuring container, multimeter or voltmeter and ampmeter required.
* Check Injectors Part of the fuel pressure check will point to leak problems with the fuel injectors and the fuel injector rail. A resistance check will determine if the injector is good. Multimeter or ohmmeter required.
* Check Intake System for Leaks
* Check Exhaust System for Leaks
* Check Secondary Air System for Leaks
* Check Vacuum Pipes for Leaks


Second code is for your intake air temp sensor
16497/P0113/000275 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42): Signal too High
Possible Symptoms

* Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON

Possible Causes

* Fuse(s) faulty * Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) faulty * Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) faulty
Possible Solutions

* Check Fuse(s) Multimeter or ohmmeter or visual required.
* Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) Multimeter or ohmmeter required.
* Check/Replace Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42) Multimeter or ohmmeter required.

Third code is also for the MAF
16485/P0101/000257 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Implausible Signal
Possible Symptoms

* Loss of Power
* Erratic Idle

Possible Causes

* Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) faulty
* Air Leak(s) after Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
* Intake Air Filter dirty/faulty
* Ground Spots corroded or Paint Residue
* Wiring and/or Connections from/to Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) faulty

Possible Solutions

* Check Intake Air Filter
* Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
* Check Ground Spots
* Check Wiring and/or Connections from/to Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
I have interjected above comments as to the various checks that must be done, and the equipment and supplies needed to do the same. Nothing involves rocket science, just a basic knowledge of the engine and guages and meters. Nor is anything terribly labor intensive. Sans the fuel injectors, even the parts, if all needed replacement are not terribly expensive. You could easily run into several hundred dollars for parts, but without any guages, meters, tools, or supplies, you will need. You can probably barrow most of those, and may be able to enlist the help of another Orger close by who has a scan tool and additional knowledge. There is a thread to find this person, somewhere.

No point in getting into this though if your not comfortable with doing what needs to be done, or if you are not financially able right now.

Let us know.

MORAV
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top