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Discussion Starter #1
7 Faults Found:
18062 - Please check DTC Memory of Instrument Cluster
P1654 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16804 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0420 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16684 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0300 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1: Misfire Detected
P0301 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16705 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0321 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16990 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0606 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16497 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42): Signal too High
P0113 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
This would be for the AVH 2.0. 2001 Beetle GLS

We also have a slightly sluggish thermostat. Runs about 79c to 88c. Doing about 65 on the highway it made it to 87 to 88c. In town? Chilled out to just over 79 to 81c

Now we did have that lousy miss fire problem on cyc 1 when we first put it on the road.

OBD II codes pulled where just the cat converter and the miss fire code, cyc 1.

So VCDS looks like it did more digging. I had some fun with the lap top and watched the program 'modules' running with the engine RPM, Temp, and the intake air temp. Honestly all looks normal to me?

Currently all ready monitors are 'okay' and the CEL is 'off' so it should pass inspection emissions without issue. I'm not planning on erasing the codes until AFTER the inspection. As that would reset all the ready monitors and fail the car for inspection. (I'm planning on taking the car in Tuesday am for the inspection)

As a side bar note? The car has been doing very well sense the initial problems. No real sign of power loss, No more CEL's or other fault lights. The ol' girl seems to be running decent.

We're still planning on changing out the plugs and wires--But that's only general maintenance at this point. Unless something we're missing? The only code that scares me a bit would be the PCM/Processor code. Not sure what that deal is? But need to figure it out. (Along with the rest.)

After inspection I'll probably clear the codes using the laptop and the 'dummy vcds' cable I got off eBay. And then drive the car a while and see what returns.

But any ideas are always welcome.

Thanks!

S-
 

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You got the right idea. Clear the codes and go for a spin. At least some codes do remain until cleared, even if there was a single momentary episode. I know for sure that a misfire DTC will remain until cleared. looks to me like every code there except the misfire and IAT have to do with using the dummy cable.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Interesting. I didn't think the dummy cable would have that much effect?

We did trigger the engine light thing once while in the 'barn' working on it. I'll hold off on clearing until after we do the inspection. I've already told the misses that we'll need a thermostat as ours is kinda running low.

Thanks!

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The other codes are legit I imagine, they just aren't decoded in VCDS Lite from the looks of it. For example its throwing a P0300 code for random misfire, its just not decoded.

I assume you are using the free VCDS Lite?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, Have to use the VCDS-Lite for the time being. (Ran outta $$ just getting it on the road)

Thankfully it spit out the actual code(s) and not some generic nonsense. Sure it will be better once I upgrade to the complete system and have it "State" what each thing means. That's why I net searched every code it tossed.

Provided the codes are all "Past" and not "Current", the CEL light is "OFF"? We should be good to go for inspection. Plus I used the generic tool from the local parts house, and all items the state will look at? Read "Okay" and not "Pending".

We just took it out again a short while ago. Lights all 'off' for errors and it drove good. Can't say to much about how it will handle the snow in this area--it got a little flackey when we hit an icy patch. Told the wife to ease off the clutch and take it slower. Last thing I need is a blown diff due to spinning the tires and having it catch "hard". (Which is what it started to do before we let off on it.)

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Smileybug's right....my bad. I saw that first code, and it's not listed in the Ross-Tech Wiki, so without looking at the other codes, I figured it had to do with the dumb cable. I have a dummy cable, too that I got from ECS Tuning. I haven't registered it yet, but still don't get all those readouts that you got concerning activation/decoding, etc, so I thought it might be your cable.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
CEL makes another appearence

Drove around today and had the CEL kick on. We drove back home and pulled the laptop out. Had the following kick up:

Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-AVC.LBL
Controller: 06A 906 032 BR
Component: 2.0l R4/2V G *3654
Coding: 00001
Shop #: WSC 08396
VCID: 6F9150BF3E85
2 Faults Found:
18062 - Please check DTC Memory of Instrument Cluster
P1654 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16804 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0420 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
Readiness: 0000 010
The rest of the codes didn't show up yet...knock on simulated wood grain.

Also stopped in to price/pick up the thermostat from the stealership. This shop is so full of *&&*. Normally I buy parts and pay the 'cash' price. These guys? Sell to over the counter sales---directly using the full "List" price!!

In short, $ 48 plus tax for a thermostat. I already found the factory one for 1/4 what the dealership was asking.

I even asked, what could cause the P0420 code? The service manager smugly said "You need a new converter--doesn't matter how good it looks--if it's tripping that code? It's in need of replacement." It was when I asked the price to do the thermostat that I decided not to work with this shop anymore.

About $250ish to replace the thermostat. Oh yes, they suggested replacement of the plastic housing. That would add another $100 to the repair bill. Talk about double dipping for labor!!

In any event? I asked could the engine running 'cool' cause the code to kick up. The service manager said "Absolutely NOT" Very smug and sure of himself....

I then asked about any software patches to help with the code P0420 And was told bluntly "NO". There has never been any updated software to the cars computer to solve this issue--and that I MUST replace the converter with only a factory supplied one.

I thanked him for the time, and left. When I got the quote for a simple thermostat I figured out how badly they price gouge their customers....I already found several online suppliers of VW parts that only charge $ 12 to $ 13 for the same exact part.

Anywhoo...

Any ideas on the codes would be welcome. It'll be a few days before I can order in the parts from the online stores.

S-
 

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The 16804/P1420 can be a leak in the intake or exhaust system. Check all your vacuum lines for cracks, especially where they connect. Can also be the catalytic converter, or possibly the oxygen sensors (very possible if still original sensors).

With the 18062/P1654 code, I don't find anything in the Ross-Tech Wiki, but according to an internet search, it most often points to an intermittent or unreliable signal from the G2 coolant temp sensor, and most of the time the fix is to replace the G2 sensor itself.
 

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ALL parts purchased at almost any car dealer these days have a premium added to them, even of you are only paying wholesale pricing because most dealer parts have a 12-24 month unlimited warranty.

So for example the $40 thermostat is at list price from the dealer, you probably would pay around $30 wholesale at the dealer because you are also paying the warranty premium. When you purchase a OE type part outside of the dealer network, it is usually much cheaper than the dealer due to no extended dealer warranty premium added.

You should be able to get an OE style state for around $15 as I recall.

Worry about the cat code once you get engine running at temp and get all the driveability issues sorted. Chances are you can "manage" this code for a while and you will see if you are lucky enough to push the occurrence of this code further and further out the more you drive the car.

Dealers can be very arrogant, but at the same time, they do not want the customers coming back for the same problem, so they throw a lot of expensive parts at issues!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Pretty sure the only hanging issue is the engine temp.

As for driveability issues? With the exception of a very slight stumble at idle. The car is running pretty well at this point. I'm still going to replace the plugs and wires with my next paycheck, and maybe dump some more cleaner for the injectors. (Yeah...the cleaner I did put in removed the stumble for a short while...it's back very mild now. My gut feeling is that we have an injector that is bunged up)

I'll replace the temp sensor at the same time as the thermostat. And of course, I'll also put the correct coolant back in the car. It's got "Green" in it, which I'm pretty sure isn't the factory "color" Lovely thing...Didn't want to have to flush the cooling system.

I'm going to do the temp check on the converter once I get my temp 'gun' returned. I know what to expect on a good converter for in/out temps. The converter bed may be as clean as a whistle--but now we have to check for how well it now functions. It's an easy and cheap test. Run the engine at 2000 RPM while at operational temp. Measure the temp at the pipe where it goes into the cat. And repeat the temp check at the outlet pipe. Being sure not to 'scan' the heat shield we should have about a 200f-300f+ increase at the 'exit' of the converter.

S-
 

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Pretty sure the only hanging issue is the engine temp.

As for driveability issues? With the exception of a very slight stumble at idle. The car is running pretty well at this point. I'm still going to replace the plugs and wires with my next paycheck, and maybe dump some more cleaner for the injectors. (Yeah...the cleaner I did put in removed the stumble for a short while...it's back very mild now. My gut feeling is that we have an injector that is bunged up)

I'll replace the temp sensor at the same time as the thermostat. And of course, I'll also put the correct coolant back in the car. It's got "Green" in it, which I'm pretty sure isn't the factory "color" Lovely thing...Didn't want to have to flush the cooling system.

I'm going to do the temp check on the converter once I get my temp 'gun' returned. I know what to expect on a good converter for in/out temps. The converter bed may be as clean as a whistle--but now we have to check for how well it now functions. It's an easy and cheap test. Run the engine at 2000 RPM while at operational temp. Measure the temp at the pipe where it goes into the cat. And repeat the temp check at the outlet pipe. Being sure not to 'scan' the heat shield we should have about a 200f-300f+ increase at the 'exit' of the converter.

S-
Forget about trying to crawl under the car and measure the converter temperature, you can, but why bother.

I have seen COUNTLESS cars trigger the P0420/P0430 codes, this usually mean the OBD system has determined the catalytic converter is operating below 95% efficiency. The problem is this is a very small threshold to and can be an easy trigger point to reach due to many reasons.

A #1 reason is due to the engine running chronically too cool, which can cause the ECU to run chronically too rich and in turn carbon up the converter and/or O2 sensors slightly to the point the P0420/P0430 codes may pop. Additionally other soft/failing sensors, exhaust leaks or other problems/combination of problems can also trigger the P0420/P0430 codes.

So my suggestion it to get the car inspected, start a log with date and mileage, drive the car and log each time the P0420/P0430 code comes on, clear the code and drive the car. Watch and see if the period/frequency starts to extend longer and longer. If so, I would not get overly excited about things.

As for the question about the injectors, I would not worry about injectors too much, they are far more durable than you would think, even if they may have some build up, I do know that even just driving can clean up injectors that may be problems from extended sitting. If you really think you have any injector issues, suggest you pull them and send them to WitchHunter Performance - Injector Cleaning & Flow Testing Services for cleaning, testing and matching. They usually have used injectors that are in good shape, cheaper than new, that they will swap/sell you. This way you also get 100% feedback of any/which injector was a problem. But check for vacuum leaks as this is the primary issue with idle problems. Fuel trim values may give you clues as well.

Do not make this harder than you need to make it. Many times some of the problems can clear up with driving.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Car already passed inspection <G> The CEL was off when we purchased the car. The codes I posted the first time where the ones in memory.

Now it's just tending to the nitpick stuff. I know injectors pretty well. My Bronco II has Bosch injectors and I had to rebuild them when I first purchased the truck due to rust and dirt bunging up the injector "Socks" they use for filters. The truck idles the same as the beetle LOL. Nice 'stumble' every 5 seconds or so. But get it off idle and the injector stays open a hair longer with the increased pulse width? Purrs like a kitten. Not saying this is the issue with our 2.0? But it's a known issue I have with the Bronco I drive.

Just something we'll keep on with. We have to drive things daily to keep things a-flowing. I actually pulled the injector rail when we did the work to it, primed the system...pointed the injector tip into a "Mason" jar and triggered it with a remote power supply. 2 injectors where so bad we replaced them. The other 4? Looked like someones finger about 1/2 across the garden hose spray pattern--and leaking severely. That's on my to-do list is to replace the other 4 injectors on it.<---edit: This is regarding the Bronco II I drive.

For the time being? It's just working past the last two error codes--or as you put it? Trying to come up with the pattern. I'm still confused a bit how the computer can figure how well the converter is doing it's job--considering there is no O2 sensor in the upstream from the exhaust manifold. Just the one as it exits the converter. It must know/compare the fuel/air ratios 'exactly' and have presets to know what the converter will do/how it reacts. So I can see your point as far as the engine's "personality" will effect the end results.

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Your car has 2 O2 sensors, almost all OBDII cars since 1996 have at least 2 O2 sensors, one pre cat and a post cat O2 sensor. The post cat sensor is what is used to determine and benchmark the catalytic converter efficiency.

But as I mentioned there are MANY factors that may trigger a catalytic converter efficiency code and many of these are somewhat false codes, but most shops knee jerk reaction is to replace the catalytic converter. If you do this, the efficiency codes will go away for a long time, but may come back if things get carboned up due to poor fuel control.

Read these 2 threads, there is everything from the spark plug anti fouler to just replacing the thermostat and driving the car. See Esse10 comments about how the P0420 has not popped back up for months since the engine temperature is running properly.

http://newbeetle.org/forums/2-0-liter-gas/61236-dreaded-po420.html
http://newbeetle.org/forums/1-8-liter-turbo/71209-p0420-code.html

As for the injectors, these German cars have plastic fuel tanks, very fine fuel filters so the likelyhood that the injectors get fouled is pretty slim in these cars.

Just think about the black scum you had pour out of the fuel filter, it was trapped in the filter.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'm not trying to be difficult. We had the exhaust pipe out of the car from the mount to the manifold to the resonator.

Where is the front O2 sensor? I'd expect to see one before the converter and the one after the converter that we have. Is it located on top of the exhaust manifold?

I'm kinda scratching my noggin on this one. The past ways I've checked converter operations would be to read the front O2 sensor and the rear O2 sensor and see what the readings are telling me. If the readings are not what I would expect? I normally bring out the touch free temp probe and check to see if the converter is functional.

Just wondering where the front O2 sensor is? It's the 2.0 engine, AVH type.

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Looks like it is in the exhaust manifold.

Keep in mind, you are not going to be able to determine if the converter efficiency is off by 5% or slightly more with an IR thermometer. You will be able to see if it is working to some degree, but you will not be able to figure out how far out of spec it is operational.

Even reading the O2 sensor Voltages is it VERY hard to manually determine if the converter is under performing by say 10%.

If you have a bad O2 sensor then you could have a false reading as well.

See this graph where the Bank 1, Sensor 1 was lazy but never triggered any codes.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks for the PDF!

Good lord, no wonder I didn't see it when I pulled the exhaust pipe! Last place I expected to see the front O2 would be on top of the manifold.

I'm used to seeing them in the actual pipe off the manifold LOL

Okay, well Payday is coming in a few days and I'll be doing the prior mentioned maintenance items and seeing what happens from there.

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Discussion Starter #18
Interesting read.

I'm going to check out how to work with checking the fuel trim just for giggles and grins. Might be interesting to peek at.

In the mean while? I'll get the thermostat, plugs and wires ordered in. That should remove those from the equation.

I'm still getting used to the VCDS software. Wish I could afford to go all out for a high end scanner tool. As it stands I'll be calling the local stealership and seeing what the deal will be to get the release code for the stereo. The wife has hinted she would like to check into getting the CD player. Her current radio has the "Buttons" for the options, but they are fake. I picked up a functional radio that can do what we ask of it--but the beetle we removed it from? Salvage yard. The owners manual with the code? Totally soaked and mold ridden. The accident the beetle was in-Roll Over. The entire sun roof section is missing/smashed in.

On an odd note? There was a tape stuck in the player. REO Speedwagon. Kinda made me wonder how much the driver was 'jamming' with the tunes when it flipped.

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Discussion Starter #20
It's all her choice at this point. As for me? LOL. At this point I'm more or less 'tweaking' the dealership that gave me the elitist attitude last time I was there.

I'm fine with pulling the radio and picking up a harness and a decent head unit and just putting it in. Plenty of choices.

Ah well. I didn't get a call back from the shop today. I threw the service writer for a loop when I told her there is no way I could get the VIN from the car I obtained the radio from. Plus it's not needed. I get the whole thing about making sure the radio is "Secure" against theft. But I think they are really going overboard.

Tomorrow's a new day!

S-
 
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