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Hi, new to the site, working on fun project as we speak.

1374 Views 11 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  HFC
My name is David,

I am president of HFC an alternative fuels company based off of Hydrogen On Demand. You all may have played with some fruit jar versions of what I do. :)

That is not important though, I'm not here to sell anything that is just who I am. What this thread is about is the project I have my mechanic working on right now.

We are taking my 05 Beetle TDI with 63k~ on the clock and installing an oversized generator on it. I have been keeping logs on my fuel economy from this and you all can probably concur under normal driving conditions with a 5 speed standard I am seeing around 42~ mpg. I can get 49-50 consistantly if I drive for efficiancy.

I am postulating that I can get 70+ mpgs out of this bug after the installation is complete. I will be taking pictures and posting them as we progress, I am very excited. This is a fun car I have owned it for about a month (Purchased specifically for this project) and am very excited to see what happens. After owning it I believe I will always have a VW Diesel for my personal vehicle from now on and as far as the bug goes.. it's just fun to drive, makes me feel like I am in a space ship with that long dash.

Here is a photo of the bug the day we took her home:
Ready to Roll:

Pullin' her home (And realizing one of my daughters had put a bit of a lean to her carseat):

One of my daughters snapped a embarrasing photo of me as I realized I forgot to set yon parking brake *eek*

I am really excited to be a bug owner, and even more excited to see how this project progresses. I have the camera rolling and will update with what happens, Right now we are tracing down the wires on the MAF sensor to find the signal return wire in order to install our controller.

Be back soon with updates :)

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It is not possible to defy the laws of thermodynamics.

Try this over on TDIclub and see how far you get before the banhammer drops.

Good luck. :rolleyes:
You could be right! There is only one way to find out and that is to just do it. Give me 24 hours to show what someone could do or what could not happen before you decide to placeth the ban upon me. :)

We will find out tomorroweth. I have done this on a few vehicles but never under these circumstances in terms of the large amount of hydrogen going in vs engine size. The bonus is diesel tends to react better.

It may do something great, or it may be a total flop. I am pretty excited to see what happens though and thought I'd share my experience, good bad or ugly. :)

The installation is complete except for the reservoir. Uploading pictures now, just a sec. :)
I discovered some fun things about the bug with this install. First off, the mechanic found what he called a "Girlie Governer" behind the gas pedal, I had never even heard of them. The second thing was... it is next to impossible to go from inside the cab to the motor bay.

The basic principle here is not so much about thermodynamics but about making your fuel more operate more efficiantly so that you get more work done for the same given volume of fuel (diesel/gas) with the addition of Hydrogen and Oxygen. Anyone can do this. Here is step one of what we did. You all can watch the proceedings and outcome and decide for yourself what you think, as with any other modification. :)

Here is a picture of about halfway through the install, you can see everything "hanging out" The generator is the big brick looking object near the front of the car. It is powered by 12 volts DC coming off the battery fed through a keyed on relay (sitting right below the wire cutters in the picture).

Here is the mechanic showing me what he found behind the gas pedal:

Here is a picture of the end of work for today, everything is in place except for the water reservoir and attached 1/2 inch clear hoses to connect everything up. We had to upgrade the outlet ports on the reservoir to accomodate the larger hoses due to the amount of Hydrogen produced by this generator vs our other ones.

The whole thing in a nutshell is this, we have found that using 1 Liter per minute of Hydrogen/Oxygen for every 1 liter of engine size produces pretty consistant results. Though diesels tend to do outperform gasoline motors in all respects.

We are going to put in 8 Liters per minute of Hydrogen/Oxygen into this motor which is a 4:1 ratio. This is going to be a fun experiment and like any new field there are always people who are cautious. I think back to people shouting "Get a Horse!" when the first clunkity automobiles ran down the street. Now nearly everyone owns at least one car and some people *raises hand guiltily* has five or six laying around.

I will post the results of tomorrows initial test soon as I can. It will take a second to put the miles on though, even bone stock I was getting almost 700 miles per tank. More tomorrow

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Thank You FI_Bug!

This seems like a really great site, I actually found it by accident earlier when I was searching for information about the bugs electrical system. This seems like a great community of like minded people and I am happy to have found this place. :)

there is a small gromet to the left of the Brake Master cylinder booster from the engine compartment. that will let you get some wires thru form the motor to the dash.

the "girlie governor" is a FACTORY piece that is there to limit the travel of the ELECRIC gas pedal on these cars. there is no pedal cable to a throttle body on these cars. if you don;t put it back, dont whine when your cars pedal Potentiometer breaks on you.

Please tell me you have a good VCDS from Ross-Tech: Home so you can monitor what your engine is telling you its doing during these experiments.

I have no idea if what you are doing will work or not, but I wish you luck.

if you have any specific TDI questions, just ask.
Thank you for the advice on the Governer!

Luckily I had him replace it after showing it to me. I told him we weren't trying to win any races and we best just leave it be. :)

I may have some specific questions coming up, diesels are a little bit foreign to me.

I don't have that particular kind of monitoring software, what we use is an Actron CP9185. It gives some pretty good real time info on various items. However the equipment you pointed me to appears to be much more in depth, I did not even know it existed. I believe I will look into it, have you had any experience with them to give information on usability and accuracy?
Hi everyone, sorry for being so late in getting back.

We finished the install today and fired the system up.

I plugged in my scanning tool and monitored some points with the vehicle idling, everything seemed well. I noticed the typical (especially for diesels) gobs of black smoke coming out the tail pipe for a bit. This is due to the HHO cleaning out the internal surfaces of the motor.. kinda like when you quit smoking and get sick for a few days as your body detoxifies. Same thing here, all the old carbon deposits were being cleaned out, this cleared up after a bit and the engine began to run smoother.

I am having a bit of an issue with the controller. Perhaps you all could lend me a technical hand here in determining the next step.

Ok so here is the deal. I use a controller (Rheastat) to modify the signal return on either the map sensor or maf sensor of a vehicle. I have experience with Over the Road Diesels.. but this is the first "little diesel" and I have never worked on a VW before. Traditionally on a standard vehicle tying into the map/maf sensor will allow me to lean the fuel flow back enough that the motor will about 3/4 of the way "around the clock". I really don't like using maf because it is always touchy.. but some cars (fords mainly) do not use map sensors for any type of fuel control.

So.. what I did was tie into the MAF sensor of this bug. The reading varies from .8 at an idle to 5~ volts under full throttle or load. When I adjust the controller even a fraction of a hair it jumps the voltage to around 2 volts and the vehicles safety kicks in (I see a bypass lever behind the oil fill cap go down and the motor goes into a "safety" mode. When the knob is turned back to the appropriate condition I see the lever disengage and the vehicle begins to run as normal again. Basically.... I have no control over diesel flow with this sensor. I am uploading a video of this right now (but its progressing slowly) to show you all what happened. It shows the data on my scan tool appearing live (though I do not know how clear it will be when everything uploads, we will see).

If anyone has any suggestions on how I can lean back the amount of fuel going into this motor.. I am listening.

For now, what I am doing is running the vehicle with no electronic controller hooked up, but still has the Hydrogen going into the motor. I am seeing a very very noticeable increase in torque/hp. The motor is running smoother.

I am taking a trip from Missouri to Houston on Monday, and will log fuel MPG during this trip to see how it was affected. I believe that with the extra power, I will be able to see an increase in mpg because I do not have to press the pedal as far down to maintain the same speeds. Basically, doing the same amount of work (speed) with less effort (fuel).

But again, this remains to be seen. I will post the numbers when I get them. If anyone can help me identify a way to reduce the fuel flow however.. I know for a fact I can up the MPGs. Anyways, that is where we are at for now, any questions or comments or suggestions please post them up. We learn by doing and this is a (fun) learning experience.


PS: Here is a pic of the final install, I had to remove the motor cover in order to fit everything, I just stuck it on the shelf in the shop. The Video from my data scanner is still uploading to photobucket it is 40% done. When it is finished I will post it.

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Here is the video showing in graph form what is happening with the mas airflow sensor. Am I right in assuming the "safety valve" that I am seeing toggle is the Anti shutter valve?

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I have a full boat VCDS $360 cable. Use it every day in my second job (see my signature)

its worth EVERY PENNY on these cars.

if you want to reduce fuelling, you want to fool the ecu into thinking that the fuel is hot. on the ALH motor (older generation motor in the 1998-2003 NBs) the fuel temp sensor is in the injection pump. on your PD unit, I am not sure where it is located but it probably still works the same way.

best of luck. get a VCDS. you can then log 4 things at once and graph them. its nice!
I have a full boat VCDS $360 cable. Use it every day in my second job (see my signature)

its worth EVERY PENNY on these cars.

if you want to reduce fuelling, you want to fool the ecu into thinking that the fuel is hot. on the ALH motor (older generation motor in the 1998-2003 NBs) the fuel temp sensor is in the injection pump. on your PD unit, I am not sure where it is located but it probably still works the same way.

best of luck. get a VCDS. you can then log 4 things at once and graph them. its nice!

I spoke with the sales guy with that company last night for quite a bit, He said for $360 I could get a setup which would accomodate all VW's and Audis until.. I believe 1990. Or for $260 I could get one that would be from ~2004+. I am going to be ordering one in the near future, it makes for a better display when we are on TV and definately outperforms my other scanner. For general use around the shop it is more convenient (from the outside looking in) to use the older scanner but.. we will see. I'm definateliy ordering one. Thank you so much for the lead.

I will research the operation of that sensor too so that we can find a way to utilize it. I believe you have just put us on the right path though. Thank you so much for it. As this project progresses I will definately keep the thread updated.

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