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Too Many Dubs....
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Im wondering what the interest is in a 3" exhaust system for the New Beetle?
Im working on one right now, hopefully to be fully available in about 2 months..

Specs are:

  • Fully mandrel bent, no crush bends!
  • Flex joint up by the turbo, not down at the bottom like the GHL. Putting the flex down by the cat like GHL does puts more stress on the pipe, increasing the likelihood of a crack.
  • Fits in the factory hanger locations
  • Pipe will be fully aluminized steel. Its not stainless, but the kit will be half the price of a stainless.
  • Available with or without converter. Converter will have a 5yr/50K mile warranty through the manufacturer that covers the converter and replacement charges at a local shop.
  • Available with or without muffler. If chosen, muffler is a 3" Magnaflow. I started using these recently on the GTI. The GTI is full 3" with a big turbo, no cat, and not very loud.
  • If you get the kit with a cat or muffler, delete pipes will also be included if you want to remove them for racing. Swapping out the converter or muffler section will be a 15 minute job once you jack up the car with this kit!
  • The parts will be available seperately(downpipe alone or cat back alone), but I do not garuntee they will be a direct fit to someone elses downpipe. Although these pipes will line up pretty close to the factory system, I do not include adaptors to neck down my 3" system to the factory 2 1/8" system. A local shop could do it pretty easily though.
  • Has a turn down style exit just like factory. All you will see from the rear of the car is a little nub pointing down. No bling bling tips. One of the reasons for this is because tips are like wheels, everyone likes something different, and hardly any of them fit exactly the same. All of these systems are made on a jig, so if every tip fits slightly different it means a different mockup and jig for every tip out there. Its alot easier for the guy at a muffler shop or you in your garage to add the perfect tip if you want to show it off.
  • Includes new factory OEM gasket(not a cheap chinese knockoff) for use at turbo to downpipe connection.
  • Flange at turbo is precision laser cut, 3/8" thick steel. No cheesy 1/4" flanges.
  • Uses high quality, easy to assemble stainless steel band clamps. Not cheap, leak prone, pain in the arse to tighten U-bolt style clamps.
  • NO CHEAP CHINESE PARTS! The only parts not made right here in the US is the pipe(which is Canadian, and may be changing) and the gasket which Im guessing is German. Even the clamps are American made.
During the design phase the entire system was fitted with no flex section in the down pipe. The flex was finally added after the piping angles were worked out perfectly and jigs could be constructed to duplicate the system exactly every time. Reason I mention this is because some ill fitting assemblies rely on the flex section to make up for improper pipe fitment. The flex is not designed to do that, and will fail prematurely if exepected to do so.

Pricing is looking to be as follows:

  • Downpipe, no cat converter: $175ish
  • Downpipe, with cat converter, AND cat delete section: $275-300
  • Cat back, no muffler: $~300-350
  • Cat back with muffler and muffler delete section: $375-425
When looking at the price, also consider the flexibility. Im not aware of any other 3" turbo back systems available for the New Beetle, but if there are I dont think any of them give you the parts and the option to remove the converter(or add them) in 15 to 20 minutes.

I am working feverishly to get the system to production, but it can take 2-4 weeks to get enough parts to do a run of systems and as with any small company there are limited funds. I am trying to avoid thinking I need to get 30 systems made and it takes 2 years to sell them :) I'm hoping to get the details taken care of, as well as a full revamping of the website to coincide with the release of this product.

Other products I am working on in the near future is a full bolt on front mount intercooler kit for the 1.8T, and billet fuel rails which allow the use of an aftermarket, external, fully adjustable fuel pressure regulator and more common Bosch injectors without using rail spacers.

Normally I wouldnt bother on a post like this, but I know the New Beetle is somewhat of a niche market and probably why it is ignored by the aftermarket when it comes to vehicle specific products. Im just trying to determine if its because of the number of New Beetle turbos compared to GTI and Jetta turbos, or if its because none of the NB owners spend money on serious upgrades.

Thanks,
Scott
Max PSI Racing
www.maxpsiracing.com <--I know the site stinks, the new one is going to be muuuuuuch better!
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Oh yeah, the system fits VERY tight to the body, this will not be an ill fitting, low hanging system. So I dont care how slammed your car is, this system wont be scraping on the ground. For instance, here is my GTI with a full 3".. Its higher now with bigger wheels, but was like this for many years...


 

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&amp;quot; I need me one of them&amp;quot;
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536 Posts
I am interested...

Giveing a few months to save a few extra $$$ I would be very interested...
 

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Feel the Power!
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302 Posts
Could you produce a custom application for an RSI rear bumper application? This would be a catback, no muffler deal.
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Pardon the ignorance, but whats an RSI bumper? Forgive me, I only been a NB owner for 4 weeks, planned to just fix and and sell the car, but I must admit the car grew on me :D But is that like one of those cup bumpers? Does the exhaust need to come out of a hole or just exit lower or what?
I changed my mind today. The kit WILL be with a tip. Its going to be a nice, not offensive 3.5" OD, double wall tip from Magnaflow most likely. Its actually very similar to the one that you can barely see on the back of my GTI in the above pics. Exiting out of the rear bumper will decrease the sound level.

As for the intercooler, its damn near impossible to get a FMIC of a worthwhile size that doesnt in some form or another require some level of modification. Fact of the matter remais that the car was not designed for it, and the front end of these things is very....condensed. LOL.... But I think I found a core that WILL fit within the confines of the stock rebar though, so thats good. The first one I was going to use would have looked boss, due to its size, but it would have required cutting out the bottom of the bumper rebar, removal of the grille/fogs/etc. I think this core will work really well, but I have been so busy with the exhaust I havent had a chance to work on it. All things considered I think I should have started with the intercooler, I can't imagine it being as hard as the exhaust has been!

Also, if everything goes well I might have a handful of exhaust systems done in about 2 weeks.

Thanks for the responses all.
 

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Performance Freak
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137 Posts
How about an upgraded Side mount IC, like the Tyrolsport one, which is as good as many FMICs.
The problem is, they don't make one for NBs.
They would if we got enough people to commit to buying one.
The one they make for Golf/Jettas won't fit the NB due to the
angle of the outlet pipe.

This way you don't increase the piping length, but you do get a more efficient IC.

Make one for like $500 and you'd sell to every chipped NB owner out there.
 

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&amp;quot; I need me one of them&amp;quot;
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536 Posts
oh...yea...

Oh...heck yea....I would go for another IC or a PAIR of IC's..one that would replace the existing as well...........
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Well, reason why I wont mess with a side mount is because I personally do not like them.
The reason I do not like them is I dont care how beefy they are, they are being fed with a hole thats the size of your shoe.
There are many factors affecting intercooler performance. With an upgraded side mount, you do get better efficiency than you get from a stocker. But, you are not feeding it with much cooling air. The only air going to the intercooler is between the passenger side foglight and the end of the grill. Thats about 11 sqaure inches of frontal area. A 20" long core in a front mount will be feeding from about 60 sqaure inches, and thats if you leave the divider strip in. So for a given speed, a 20" wide front mount will be getting 6 times the ambient air that the side mount will get. So even if in a lab environment the side mount upgrade is just as efficient as this hypothetical front mount, the front mount will still be MORE efficient in the real world because it has more air to work with.

As for the additional piping and its effect on performance, one word... MYTH. I proved that to myself almost 10 years ago. I had a turbo car which came stock non intercooled. The engine was mounted longitudinally(like the new Passats), the turbo was on the passenger side which meant the throttle body pointed at the passenger shock tower. When I first did my front mount intercooler, I had a 90 degree bend immediately after the turbo in 2", then it stepped up to 2.25" and was about a 20" run straight into the intercooler...That side was good.. Problem was the passenger side. There outlet of the intercooler was behind the headlight, and pointed mostly back but a little towards the driver side. I had to get to the passenger side. I ended up running about a 120 degree bend to get the piping pointed to the passenger side, then after about 24" it cleared the engine ran a 90 back for about 24", then the was another 90 to make it point at the drivers side again.
In total from the intercooler to the throttle body was 300 degrees in bends, and atleast 5 feet of piping in that branch alone! . I ended up modifying my intake manifold. There is a way you can cut and weld them on that type of car where the throttle body points straight forward instead of towards the passenger side. This allowed me to run a 90 and a 45 degree bend or something, and about 18" of pipe. So I cut down the bend amount by 1/2(300 to 135), and the length of that section by like 70%.... And you know what the effect was? It made the car easier to work on, thats all. It did not affect performance one bit. And I used to race the car at the track twice a week back then.
Also, consider the fact that just because you cannot SEE the intercooler piping on the factory setup, it does not mean it isnt there. The pipe from the turbo to the intercooler from the factory is VERY long. It goes from the brake booster across the back of the engine, then down the back of the engine, up under the frame rail, then down into the fender well.

On edit, I looked at Tyrolsports page, and saw their tests... Considering they gave no useful information on the FMIC they used, or how they piped it, I would hardly consider there to be a myth busted. There are TONS of FMIC's on the market I could put in a test to prove how my SMIC worked better if I had one and wanted to. As a hint, those ICs that are like 5" tall, 20" long, and 2.5" thick with the inlet and outlets on the end just plain suck. They have lots of volume, decent frontal area, but no flow area for the engine air.
And looking at their lag claims, comparing their second run with the FMIC there is maybe a 200-300RPM difference between equivalent boost pressures... Think to yourself..When you go WOT from a redlight(or you downshift at higher speeds), how long does it take to accelerate 300rpm? And thats really only for one or two gears anyway unless you are a really slow shifter.
It would be more worthwhile to show boost response in a graph of boost pressure vs time for things like acceleration from a dead stop and a 60-100mph run from 3rd to 4th.
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Oh yeah, you say every chipped NB owner would do an upgraded side mount for 500. Interesting. Tyrolsports page shows their side mounts are like 750 bucks??? Now, what would these chipped NB owners think of a FMIC kit that contained a nice, large FMIC, brackets, silicone hose connectors, P flow, etc for about 900?
And when I say a nice, large FMIC, Im not talking about an Ebay Chinese cooler. Im hesitant to say who I am looking at getting coolers from because I havent had a chance to talk to them about pricing yet, but its well known, good stuff.
BTW, how many people are they looking to have you commit to to do a SMIC?
 

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Feel the Power!
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302 Posts
BoostedOne said:
Pardon the ignorance, but whats an RSI bumper? Forgive me, I only been a NB owner for 4 weeks, planned to just fix and and sell the car, but I must admit the car grew on me :D But is that like one of those cup bumpers? Does the exhaust need to come out of a hole or just exit lower or what?
Here's a pic: http://beetlecupconnection.com/store.htm

Yes, it's the Beetle Cup style with dual exhaust exit points. The bigger deal is where the exhaust routes under the car, particularly the convertible.

Can you design a custom 3" to accomodate this criteria? I can bring my car to you since I'm here in Tampa.
 

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&amp;quot; I need me one of them&amp;quot;
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536 Posts
Wow, that was an interesting write up. I would be interested in a FMIC...After reading it all.....yup...FMIC..... :)
 

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Registered
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BoostedOne said:
Oh yeah, you say every chipped NB owner would do an upgraded side mount for 500. Interesting. Tyrolsports page shows their side mounts are like 750 bucks??? Now, what would these chipped NB owners think of a FMIC kit that contained a nice, large FMIC, brackets, silicone hose connectors, P flow, etc for about 900?
And when I say a nice, large FMIC, Im not talking about an Ebay Chinese cooler. Im hesitant to say who I am looking at getting coolers from because I havent had a chance to talk to them about pricing yet, but its well known, good stuff.
BTW, how many people are they looking to have you commit to to do a SMIC?

Boost Factory's SMIC is $500
 

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Performance Freak
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137 Posts
Will Boost factory's SMIC fit a stock NB with no modification?
Will the FMIC mentioned above fit a stock NB with no modification?

That is the real question.
I don't want have to spend $1k on a front spoiler/bumper to make the FMIC work properly. I also don't want to hack up my existing front end to make it fit.
The NB's stock SMIC is the smallest of all 1.8Ts, so we need a good solution that's easy and reasonably priced.

From what I've seen of the Boost factory SMIC, it's huge, and I would imagine fitting it to an NB would require some serious work.
 

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formerly known as BROWN E
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146 Posts
Sounds like a great price for a 3" catback to me. Just got to make sure it will be able to mate with my ATP 3" high flow cat i've got on there. Might be a bracket or adapter that I already have on there that could mate the two.

Will there be a hidden tip muffler option? Doesn't really matter to me if there is or isn't its just a preference. But I do think the price estimation is in our favor unlike some of the other companies charging 200+ dollars more.
 

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my turbo is bigger!!!!!!!
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502 Posts
u can get a fmic under the stock front bumper without mods... i would know...i had the biggest one ever under a nb... u have little under 3 inches to workwith... and i really doubt fog light would work... bc their so bulky.... but could prolly make something work
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
WOW...Turn my back a day or two and now I got a bajillion questions to answer :)

Anaconda said:
Will there be a hidden tip muffler option? Doesn't really matter to me if there is or isn't its just a preference. But I do think the price estimation is in our favor unlike some of the other companies charging 200+ dollars more.
Well, what do you mean by a hidden tip muffler? At first, I was going to do it with a turndown, like the stock system. I later changed to having tasteful, but slightly dressy tip.

Here is one tip I am considering:
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=main&id=745

Here is the other:
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=main&id=1075

As for a hidden tip, I would guess you mean something like the first idea I had, using a turn down. In that case, the muffler was mounted up higher in the body. What did show was the tip of the turndown. Reason for this is it has to. If the tip is not lower than the bumper, it will trap fumes under the car. In all honesty, Im suprised the stock setup works as well as it does. The ironic thing is, when I was a kid I got tickets for setups that are similar to the stock system, as the law here states the exhaust must exit the body. If I was 16 again and made a system like the stocker for something like my old GTI, I would probably get a ticket.. Oh well :confused:
I'll have to weigh the options. One of the reasons for wanting to do a tip is because mounting the muffler up higher looks like it might have more of a tendency to knock against the body. I'll have to examine it on a case by case basis. At this point it seems like having a tip would be more popular, so I may consider something like having a kit that doesnt include a tip, but its up to the end user to make it fit. Coming off the rear axle the pipe will drop down at a 45, then point back. If you cut the drop and clamp/weld it, you can effectively raise the muffler, then just modify the hanger assembly. But like I said, let me get this started then when I get time(probably summer!) I can look at doing hidden stuff..

w00sh! said:
Here's a pic: http://beetlecupconnection.com/store.htm

Yes, it's the Beetle Cup style with dual exhaust exit points. The bigger deal is where the exhaust routes under the car, particularly the convertible.

Can you design a custom 3" to accomodate this criteria? I can bring my car to you since I'm here in Tampa.
We might be able to work something out. You already have the bumper on the car? Send me a PM. I know I dont have time to do it right now, but think I could probably work something up.

v-dubed said:
u can get a fmic under the stock front bumper without mods... i would know...i had the biggest one ever under a nb... u have little under 3 inches to workwith... and i really doubt fog light would work... bc their so bulky.... but could prolly make something work
Yeah, depending on the size, you got 3" to work with. Problem is, 3" aint all that much..LOL.. When you did this, did you modify the bumper bar?
Basically, thats what it is coming down to. Something has to give. As I see it, design constraints/considerations are flow, hidden modifications that need to be performed, visible modifications that need to be performed, and frontal area.
I wanted to maximize frontal area, while keeping high flow rates and not having any hidden or visible modifications. Well, as I heard before, we can wish in one hand and sh*t in the other, and see which gets full first..
Heres the deal. If we do a 2" thick core, it will fit just fine probably, but not flow very well. By the time you give a little extra for things like piping, a protector to keep it from sitting metal to metal on the condensor, etc, and to make it fit without trimming the bumper rebar 2.5 is where it starts getting hairy. Im having a hell of a time getting a core that will be bigger than 2" thick, fit behind the grille, fit behind the bumper bar, etc, and still have what I feel to be a worthwhile amount of frontal area and flow capability.

So, if some could englighten me as to the limit of what they would do for a cooler, I would appreciate it. Basically heres what I have so far, and I think it will perform AWESOME.

It WILL fit behind the stock bumper COVER with NO modification.
It WILL REQUIRE modification to the lower grille. Basically, you take out the mesh between the foglights below the splitter strip. On the outsides of the fogs, and on the top half of the grill will be the same.
It WILL require modification to the radiator support(plastic peice). This can be done with a die grinder, dremel, or a cut off wheel. I did it with a cut off wheel and it took all of about 10 minutes, so time wise its easy, and removes not much material. See photos.
It WILL require modification to the bumper bar. Im talking about the metal bar(invisible), not the bumper cover(what everyone sees). How much, Im not yet prepared to say. The core I have has a lip where the end tanks stick out about 3/8" on each side, making the core the assembly thicker than it really is. The manufacturer said some modifications to the design or a total custom unit is available, so I have to talk to them on if they can make the end tanks the exact same thickness as the core. I assume they do it this way because of the way the core is purchased by them, its just a matter of how much they will charge us to trim it down I think. I am not going to trim my bumper bar, Im just going to leave it off for now... One thing is for certain, even if they can make the tanks thinner, its still going to require trimming of the rebar which can be done easily with an air cut off wheel, or if you dont have an air compressor use what I do in the shop, a 4.5" angle grinder with a 4.5" cut off blade. DeWalt makes one of these grinders they sell at Home Depot for like $60, and the blades are like $1.99. As it sits right now, it looks like it will need about 3/4" trimmed off some places on the back side of the bumper bar.

It WILL fit the factory foglights, with some modification!! Basically, the top mount that is molded into the fog light will interfere with the piping. It will have to be trimmed off, and from there you can use a peice of metal and bend a more efficient mount and epoxy it to the light. Ghetto, maybe, but noone will be able to see it, and it will fill that gaping hole nicely.

So yes, I see guys who dont want to hack up their car to make it fit. I personally dont see this as hacking, its trimming. Ive seen some installs with the cooler hanging out of the bumper cover and so forth, where theres no chance of putting a grill back on or anything. What is hacking or trimming, what is too much or is acceptable is dependant on the individual. Im curious as to how many think the above mentioned is too much for the below result. Oh yeah, it doesnt take that long to take the car apart this far, so dont look at the pics and think "Damn, thats way too much work!" As a first timer it took me about 2 hours to get the front clip removed.


So without further adoo, heres some eye candy. Sorry for the mess, and I wish the pics looked better but Im no photographer..


Showing what needs to be trimmed from the radiator support. This helps the cooler sit in further. As I mentioned, this only takes about 10 minutes with a cut off wheel.



Here is the intercooler temporarily mounted on the car. Note the size of the stock cooler in comparison to this thing.. The new one is MASSIVE.





Here is what it looks like with the bumper cover back in place. NOTE, the GRILLE AND FOGLIGHTS WILL GO BACK ON, WITH A LITTLE TRIMMING AND MODIFICATION. See above.



And lastly, I (badly) photoshopped what the intercooler on top of the last pic. I know the pictures with the cover off make it hard to proportion this, so hopefully the following helps give you an idea of the size of this intercooler. NO creative resizing was done to make it look bigger. Both photos were taken on a tri-pod in the exact same position. Before resizing I simply "cut out" the cooler from the pic with no cover and pasted it on top of what you can see of the cooler in the photo with the cover on...



Phew.. I think Im getting carpal tunnel syndrome...:D



 

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my turbo is bigger!!!!!!!
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502 Posts
iight here i go.... on my car i ran no bumper support.. my intercooler was 31x12x4... the max thickness u can runn under a new beetle is about 5 and a half inches and 11 inches tall..if u cut out the bumper like i did... any taller it will hit the seem in the front bumper... if u get a 2 1/4 intercooler im pritty shure it will fit under the bumper support without cutting... for any ic on a new beetle id run a 31x6-8x2 1/2... basickly a greddy ic... and on that beetle with that intercooler... those spouts are in a bad spot... ur making alot of unessary bends... what i would do is make new endpipes... oh and the od of the ic piping is gotta be under 2 1/4 or it will not go through the headlight hole... here are some pics of mine


 

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Too Many Dubs....
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160 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Cool thanks for the pics!
Well, I decided to try that core in an effort to save the foglights. And I think I did!
But what you mention about piping is what most probably dont think about when it comes to putting the IC on the car..The fact that it has to exit the cooler somewhere and there are practical limitations as to what you can do with it.
Thats one reason why I did not want to go with a cooler with an end tank configuration like you did. Yes, its easier to run. But, especially considering that the bottom of the cooler pokes out of the grille opening, having the pipes down there means absolutely no hope of putting a grille back one.
As for getting the piping into the headlight hole that was the least of my worries, LOL... I managed around that pretty easy. The hard part was getting between the damned turnsignal bucket in the bumper cover and the frame rail.
BUT, I got a 300 dollar order of mandrel bends in the other day, after scrapping a good portion of them in trial and error fitups I can proudly say I think I got it worked out. Between the turbo outlet and the inlet of the cooler I have 405 degrees worth of bends. Lookin at your setup, you seem to have a little more, but using bigger piping(looks like 5 90s and a 45)And its all hidden from veiw, you cant see any of it! As for not being able to run 2.25" through the headlight hole though, even though I am using 2" pipe from the turbo to the cooler, you can get 2.25 through the headlight hole if you use a silicone 45. It just takes a little bit of squishing it to fit. Where my problem is is the turnsignal like I mentioned earlier. 2.25 would never work there unless it was fitted to every car. Considering 2.5" intercooler piping is adequate on 1400hp cars, I dont feel there is any worries using 2" on our cars.
The outlet of the cooler worked out really well. I wish there was an access like that on the drivers side. Im tying back into the stock hose from the IC to the throttle body since alot of guys have money already in Samco type hoses, plus the stock hose is a decent peice so I dont see a reason to change it. But anyhow, between the outlet of the intercooler and the stock IC to TB hose is only 135 degrees in bends..And thats in 2.5".
I tried some to run the pipe like you did, but with no luck. The car I am using is an automatic, and there just is not the room to do it without modifying the battery tray. Plus, I want this to work for both 5 speed and automatic equipped cars, so any time I get close to the tranny I worry about it not clearing the shifter cables or shift tower on the 5 speed.

I spent ALOT of time on the mockup, and can finally say I got the damn bumper cover to fit back on though. I may snap some pics tonight.
 
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