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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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I don't know what else to add to this.

The Pentagon has reneged on its offer to pay a $15,000 bonus to members of the National Guard and Army Reserve who agree to extend their enlistments by six years, according to Sen. Patty Murray (D-Seattle).

The bonuses were offered in January to Active Guard and Reserve and military technician soldiers who were serving overseas. In April, the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs ordered the bonuses stopped, Murray said.
Source: The News Tribune (Tacoma, Washington)


Next thing you know the Pentagon will cancel the salary they promised active duty personnel.
 

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same bludden, more taste!
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http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1120140,00.html?cnn=yes

The Iraq War Comes Home
A Pentagon survey of returning U.S. soldiers finds many traumatized by the occupation
By MARK THOMPSON

Posted Wednesday, Oct. 19, 2005


The Iraq war is coming home, with more than one of every four returning vets complaining of mental or physical wounds caused by the conflict. The first time the U.S. went to war with Iraq, in 1991, ground combat lasted precisely 100 hours, but its impact on the U.S. troops who waged it, including physical and mental scars, was ignored and belittled by the Pentagon hierarchy for years. This time, with the war going much worse for U.S. forces, the Pentagon is paying much closer attention to the invisible wounds combat is leaving on soldiers.

According to an accounting by the Army's Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine, nearly 1,700 troops returning from the war zone this year said they have thought of harming themselves or felt they would be better off dead (250 said they had such thoughts "a lot"). About 20,000 suffer from nightmares and other flashbacks. More than 3,700 said they feared they might hurt or "lose control" with another person. Another disturbing finding: Troops serving in Iraq are more than twice as likely to see their comrades—or civilians—killed or wounded than they are to see enemy dead or injured. And the trend is getting worse: Soldiers reported feeling more fear this year and last year while in Iraq, compared to those GIs who served in the initial invasion force in 2003. Twice as many serving in 2004-05 fired their weapons in combat compared to the 2003 soldiers.

"To the troops who were there, these numbers are not at all surprising," says Paul Rieckoff, who served as an Army Reserve lieutenant in the second Iraq war and now heads Operation Truth, a New York-based advocacy group for veterans. He says he hopes the numbers convince Congress of the need to increase funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs. "It's also important to note that the situation is getting worse for many troops, not better, even though the White House is trying to convince us otherwise."

Instead of letting ailments like Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Gulf War Syndrome slowly bubble up at Department of Veterans' Affairs hospitals, the Army is screening soldiers before and after they serve in combat, and then a follow-up returning screening several months after they come home. They are finding that more than one in four—28 percent—are limping home with psychological or physical woes, ranging from unhealed war wounds to thoughts of suicide. Those roughly 150,000 vets eclipse the official war tally of 1,971 killed and 15,220 wounded through Tuesday.

The comprehensive survey of deployed troops began in 1997, following the lack of good data on soldiers' well-being in the first Gulf War. Thousands of soldiers in the 1990-91 conflict complained of a wide range of physical and mental ailments that came to be called Gulf War Syndrome, and for which a definitive cause has never been found. A government panel concluded a year ago that roughly one in seven veterans of the first Gulf War suffered war-related medical problems, about half the total reporting such problems in the current conflict.

William Winkenwerder Jr., assistant defense secretary for health affairs, has said the Pentagon has taken steps to prevent a recurrence of Gulf War Syndrome. Many experts believes its myriad of symptoms— pain, fatigue, diarrhea and cognitive impairment, among others—is linked to the toxic chemical soup, including Saddam Hussein's stockpiles of nerve agents destroyed by U.S. forces, that contaminated the battlefield in the 1990-91 conflict. "We've done quite a lot more to set up preventive health systems—monitoring of soil, water, air and just ongoing monitoring of the environment to ensure as best we can that people avoid things, either infectious agent or toxins or any kind of exposures that might cause disease," he said early in 2004. But he added that such steps would not eliminate the stress of combat. "Being in these environments and fighting this kind of war is clearly going to be stressful for some people."
Boy, I am sure glad this war is NOTHING like Vietnam!!!
 

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same bludden, more taste!
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Started because of mostly unfounded paranoia....check.

Fought against by a vastly inferior force with relatively primitive weapons, but willing to die for their cause...check

Our men and women returning home with excedingly high rates of mental illness...check

Our VA system not able to handle the task because of poor foresight...check

Hostile forces taking over once we stop supporting the puppet regime...Wilco

Covert support coming from neighboring countries, requiring illegal border incursions to recon...check

Defense contractors raking in the bucks....check

Well, Bob Hope isnt around, and its the desert, not the jungle, so you got me there.
 

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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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Discussion Starter #6
You are forgetting the poorly defined mission, with no clear exit strategy or measure for defining success.
 

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bludden said:
1 Started because of mostly unfounded paranoia....check.

2 Fought against by a vastly inferior force with relatively primitive weapons, but willing to die for their cause...check

3 Our men and women returning home with excedingly high rates of mental illness...check

4 Our VA system not able to handle the task because of poor foresight...check

5 Hostile forces taking over once we stop supporting the puppet regime...Wilco

6 Covert support coming from neighboring countries, requiring illegal border incursions to recon...check

7 Defense contractors raking in the bucks....check

Well, Bob Hope isnt around, and its the desert, not the jungle, so you got me there.
1 Not true at all, I've been over that on here several times, and I'm not doing it again.

2 What enemy has not been willing to die for their cause?

3 Haven't heard much about that one at all

4 Or this one

5 Do you have proof that they are, or you just trying to make a leap here?

6 That's not covert support, that's just terrorists coming over.

7 HOW DARE THEY MAKE MONEY FOR THE WORK THEY DO! Shame on them!
 

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same bludden, more taste!
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73standard said:
1 Not true at all, I've been over that on here several times, and I'm not doing it again.
ALL evidence points otherwise. Only your personal, unfounded opinion stands in the way. Years of documented evidence, lots of which has been presented on the ORG, back me up.

2 What enemy has not been willing to die for their cause?
English in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, Civil War, Germans in WWI and II, North Koreans, Saddams army, for examples - generally their forces did not adopt suicide attacks as a preferred method of attack. The Japanese and North Vietnamese had a far higher percentage of volunteers ready to conduct suicide attacks to make up for their forces lack of firepower against a superior US force. The insurgency in Iraq is basically the same.

3
Haven't heard much about that one at all
I can understand why you have not heard about it - luckily for you I just posted an article related to the government research on it, after which you made a general quote on my one sentence of opinion, directly above.

4 Or this one
Correlate the information we are recieving about injuries and mental health issues, put it against the understaffed situation we currently face with the VA, and add all them in. Also, remember that Republican Congresses and Administrations typically slash VA funding, leaving the Dems to fight to get it back, and make your own conclusions. Of course, for you that will probably mean not actually analyzing the issue, just "supporting Bush".

5 Do you have proof that they are, or you just trying to make a leap here?
Wilco=Will Comply; meaning yes, this is what I believe, based on the evidence in the field of Iranian support of Shiite violence, their desire to control Iraqi oil and bring the historically trod upon Shiite majority into their fold, and the historical certainty of strong nations taking over the weaker ones.

6 That's not covert support, that's just terrorists coming over.
Dubya himself has called Syria and Iran out on these activities.

7 HOW DARE THEY MAKE MONEY FOR THE WORK THEY DO! Shame on them!
Corporate favoritism and a lot of evidence of overcharging the government by companies like Halliburton has been extensively documented, and the government has imposed relatively puny fines on some, showing the war profiteering stance - by the way, thats money out of your pocket, same as the mostly mythical welfare mom who keeps having kids to steal your money - of lots of companies. For further information, feel free to Google "Eisenhower Military Industrial Complex". It's OK. He was a Republican President.
 

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English in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, Civil War, Germans in WWI and II, North Koreans, Saddams army, for examples - generally their forces did not adopt suicide attacks as a preferred method of attack. The Japanese and North Vietnamese had a far higher percentage of volunteers ready to conduct suicide attacks to make up for their forces lack of firepower against a superior US force. The insurgency in Iraq is basically the same.
You said willing to die, not a thing about suicide bombers. So name a war where the enemy was not willing to die.


Dubya himself has called Syria and Iran out on these activities.
But wait... I thought he was a liar. So why believe him now?

For further information, feel free to Google "Eisenhower Military Industrial Complex". It's OK. He was a Republican President.
Really? Thanks for pointing that out because I didn't know that. :rolleyes:

Wilco=Will Comply; meaning yes,
No ****? Thanks for pointing that out.
 

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I for once ...I am happy Dubya went AWOL and did not see any action in NAM´

could you imagine him any crazyer than he already is? :D

I have a real good history about ´Nam wackos from my childhood, but Ill keep it to myself, because war affected people are IMHO twice as ^%$ up as regular John Doe
 

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Pulgamovil said:
I for once ...I am happy Dubya went AWOL and did not see any action in NAM´
Care to show me where and when he went AWOL? I'd love to hear from someone that has never served in the US Reserve Forces tell me about that. Please go right ahead.
 

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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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Discussion Starter #12
73standard said:
Care to show me where and when he went AWOL? I'd love to hear from someone that has never served in the US Reserve Forces tell me about that. Please go right ahead.
this had been discussed ad nauseum in the old forums.

To use your own words, go look it up.
 

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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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Discussion Starter #13
73standard said:
You said willing to die, not a thing about suicide bombers. So name a war where the enemy was not willing to die.
What is the difference between being a suicide bomber acting in support of your cause, and being willing to die for your cause?

73standard said:
But wait... I thought he was a liar. So why believe him now?
Because there is independent confirmation of activities going on along the Syrian border, with US incursions into Syria (a al Cambodia), and independent confirmation of similar activities going on along the Iranian border.
 

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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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Discussion Starter #14
Now of course all of this is off topic.

The Pentagon is cancelling re-up bonuses for Reserve and National Guard, and trying to figure out a way to take the money back from those who have already been paid.
 

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dgoldbe2 said:
(1)What is the difference between being a suicide bomber acting in support of your cause, and being willing to die for your cause?


(2)Because there is independent confirmation of activities going on along the Syrian border, with US incursions into Syria (a al Cambodia), and independent confirmation of similar activities going on along the Iranian border.
1. Do you really have to ask?

2. But it came out of President Bush's mouth, surely it must not be true.
 

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73standard said:
1. Do you really have to ask?
There's actually a big difference between being a suicide bomber, and being willing to die for your country.

Someone in the military who is willing to fight for their country, realizes, there is a danger involved, and there is a chance they could be killed in duty.

A suicide bomber goes out with every intention of killing himself for his cause.

Big difference.
 

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dgoldbe2 said:
Now of course all of this is off topic.

The Pentagon is cancelling re-up bonuses for Reserve and National Guard, and trying to figure out a way to take the money back from those who have already been paid.
I haven't taken the time to read the article, but do they give a reason why?
 

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I bleed Burnt Orange!
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Discussion Starter #20
73standard said:
I haven't taken the time to read the article, but do they give a reason why?
It was an oops on their part.

They didn't intend to offer it (even though they did), and even though they offered it, they didn't intend to pay it out (even though they did in a few cases).

Now it is the case of, eventhough they offered it, and a number of people re-upped because of the bonus, those individuals are not going to get it. Those that have already received it are going to get the bonus taken back.

Based on the Pentagon's weak explanations of how the bonus came to be offered, and why only a few people were paid, leads to the only conclusion, that the Pentagon engaged in a bait and switch.

Get enough people to sign on the bottom line, pay out a few bonuses to demonstrate good faith, then yank it all back once you get as many people as possible.
 
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