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ok so I had a post on here about a lot of diff problems im having, the tranny issue got addressed but alas the thread got long and no one responded to my latest post, I had two CEL codes P0171 and P0303, the misfire code I guess could be caused by the system lean,but prob by the fact the coils are old and nasty, this is a 02 TS with 121k btw...

this is the fuel trim as requested by another user...






ok so I managed to find a real nice scanner at work (C-reader I think) and it does show live stream, so here are the values for the fuel trim...I don't really understand it all so please clue me in

this is all at idle

calculated load 2%

short term fuel trim 3.1% 6.3% (no in between just between those two)

long term fuel trim -2.3%

MAF Rate @idle 0.4 LBS

I Repo cars for a living so im not at the shop now, if you need more data, cant do till tomorrow, if needed please tell me what numbers to look for
 

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CReader is a good tool, the nicer CReader is the CReader VI.

So for fuel trim, anything negative (-) is not good and is usually an indicator of either a false reading do to a bad/wrong sensor.

Also try to post the Freeze Frame data for the lean codes as well.

Good Long Term Fuel Trim values are usually between 0% and +2.5%.

Real lean conditions that trigger lean codes usually have LTFT value at +10% or higher.

RARELY does LTFT run in the negative direction, this is removing fuel from the engine and is usually due to a rich fuel condition, but again, rich fuel conditions are VERY rare.

Lean conditions usually start with vacuum leaks, unless the lean condition is at cruise 35 MPH or higher, which then could be a bad/wrong MAF and/or fuel pump. Vacuum leak on these cars can be caused by broken dipstick tubes, the black and white small check valve under the engine cover disintegrate all the time. As for the negative fuel trim at idle then you may have an Evaportive check valve or solenoid that may be an issue causing this, but do not jump in this direction yet, still need more data. Freeze Frame for the lean code and LTFT at steady cruise 45-55 MPH.

Spark plugs and gap are very important in turbo cars, the plug gap is actually small compared to other engines due to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The misfire may be a coil or spark plug, but is could also be due to lean conditions as well.

The MAF reading at idle is about where I would expect it. Try to configure the tool for metric measurement or at least the MAF reading for Grams/Sec and also check the engine temp at idle, engine should be around 205F/96C. These cars have soft thermostats ALL the time and it is not good for these engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
awesome....very informative

well im back at work so I cant post the new data till tomorrow afternoon :( , but will do as soon as I get to work...
 

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CReader is a good tool, the nicer CReader is the CReader VI.

So for fuel trim, anything negative (-) is not good and is usually an indicator of either a false reading do to a bad/wrong sensor.

Also try to post the Freeze Frame data for the lean codes as well.

Good Long Term Fuel Trim values are usually between 0% and +2.5%.

Real lean conditions that trigger lean codes usually have LTFT value at +10% or higher.

RARELY does LTFT run in the negative direction, this is removing fuel from the engine and is usually due to a rich fuel condition, but again, rich fuel conditions are VERY rare.

Lean conditions usually start with vacuum leaks, unless the lean condition is at cruise 35 MPH or higher, which then could be a bad/wrong MAF and/or fuel pump. Vacuum leak on these cars can be caused by broken dipstick tubes, the black and white small check valve under the engine cover disintegrate all the time. As for the negative fuel trim at idle then you may have an Evaportive check valve or solenoid that may be an issue causing this, but do not jump in this direction yet, still need more data. Freeze Frame for the lean code and LTFT at steady cruise 45-55 MPH.

Spark plugs and gap are very important in turbo cars, the plug gap is actually small compared to other engines due to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The misfire may be a coil or spark plug, but is could also be due to lean conditions as well.

The MAF reading at idle is about where I would expect it. Try to configure the tool for metric measurement or at least the MAF reading for Grams/Sec and also check the engine temp at idle, engine should be around 205F/96C. These cars have soft thermostats ALL the time and it is not good for these engines.
I have to respectfully disagree with some of this. Anything +/- 10 is within an "acceptable" range. And running rich isn't worse than running lean. I'd rather run a bit on the rich side, personally. A normal STFT with a wacky LTFT is often the MAF, but also could be a boost leak.

IMO rich conditions aren't THAT rare.. my LTFT is around -10 due to a boost leak. Boost leaks can cause a rich condition and boost leaks are somewhat common.

With that said,

I have to say... honestly your fuel trims look pretty normal.. Those trims would NOT trip a code. Perhaps the code was stored, the problem was fixed, but the codes weren't cleared? If you haven't done so, I'd clear the codes and drive around a few days and recheck the trims. Just my thought. You probably do have a vacuum leak as far as the STFT is concerned, but IMO the LTFT looks ok.
 

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yeah originally I cleared both codes, and after a cpl of days of driving around is when the codes came back...on that..when I got back from work I was getting everything out of my work car and putting it in the Beetle, that's when the codes came back, during that few minutes of it just idling, I can tell you also that it happened after what I believe was the SAI coming on (it was cold outside) I don't know what exactly the SAI sounds like, but I know it wasn't a fan that's for sure, more of a slight whooshing noise kinda like a small turbine very quietly spooling up..right aftet that the codes came back

prob unrelated, but just so you know

will post freeze frame data in morning at idle again, and at crusing speed, maybe then we can figure out more
 

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I have to respectfully disagree with some of this. Anything +/- 10 is within an "acceptable" range. And running rich isn't worse than running lean. I'd rather run a bit on the rich side, personally. A normal STFT with a wacky LTFT is often the MAF, but also could be a boost leak.

IMO rich conditions aren't THAT rare.. my LTFT is around -10 due to a boost leak. Boost leaks can cause a rich condition and boost leaks are somewhat common.

With that said,

I have to say... honestly your fuel trims look pretty normal.. Those trims would NOT trip a code. Perhaps the code was stored, the problem was fixed, but the codes weren't cleared? If you haven't done so, I'd clear the codes and drive around a few days and recheck the trims. Just my thought. You probably do have a vacuum leak as far as the STFT is concerned, but IMO the LTFT looks ok.[/QUOTE

WOW, What did I do to bring this happiness on???

I have to fully disagree with EVERYTHING you stated and I have no idea where you get your information.

I deal with all makes and model vehicles and watch fuel trims on a daily basis.

I can in fact tell you that my 1.8t will run ALL day long one it is warmed up between 0% and +2.5% My acceptable range is 0% to +3%. Anything above 3% for an extended period or negative is something that needs more investigation.

I have not found the specific threshold that the VW will trigger lean codes, but I can tell you that MOST of the vehicles I deal with have a threshold of about +10% for lean and usually about 3-5% for rich DTC. Also +10% is also a lot of added fuel.

The OP STFT values are what I would consider "normal", but without seeing the car in real time, I would say not to worry about them. The OP does not have a vacuum leak IF the LTFT is -2.3%. The only vacuum leak that might cause a -2.3% LTFT might be the line to the Fuel Pressure regulator. The STFT is always dancing around and it take a bit more first hand review in real time to really understand what is going on.

What is NOT normal is a LTFT of -2.3% at idle. Not much boost happening at idle, doubt this a boost leak issue. But there could be problems with the diverter valve or something else strange. Even a bad thermostat and cold running engine can cause the fuel trim to be negative, due to the temp/fuel mapping. But I can tell you something is not right with this car and it should not be discounted. It needs to be addressed.

If the OP can provide Freeze Frame data then we will be able to see the details as to why the Lean code was triggered, like at what RPM, what speed, what LTFT, etc.

What we have here is a disagreement in LTFT at idle and a Lean DTC, which I am assuming may be as speed and not idle. But again, the Freeze Frame info will tell us what is going on.

I almost NEVER see a vehicle with a negative LTFT, but I have also found many cars that have fuel trims all screwed up due to wrong or counterfeit MAF's that cause the total fuel management system to get fully confused and not be able to balance the fuel supply.

Anyway, once the OP can come back with Freeze Frame info, coolant temp info and get LTFT at a steady 40-50 MPH cruise we can get a better idea of what is going on with this car.
 

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yeah originally I cleared both codes, and after a cpl of days of driving around is when the codes came back...on that..when I got back from work I was getting everything out of my work car and putting it in the Beetle, that's when the codes came back, during that few minutes of it just idling, I can tell you also that it happened after what I believe was the SAI coming on (it was cold outside) I don't know what exactly the SAI sounds like, but I know it wasn't a fan that's for sure, more of a slight whooshing noise kinda like a small turbine very quietly spooling up..right aftet that the codes came back

prob unrelated, but just so you know

will post freeze frame data in morning at idle again, and at crusing speed, maybe then we can figure out more

Yeah, that probably is the SAI you're hearing but it is probably unrelated. Mine is starting to go out.. well, it's been going out for about a year but hasn't thrown a code. it's just noisy.

I am a bit confused as to why you have 2 STFTs though lol. It was my understanding you only throw a CEL for fuel trims when they reach +/- 25. So, the misfire code is probably tripping the CEL, as I don't think your trims are wacky enough to throw it but are probably showing a soft code. But I don't know.

I'd be more concerned about the misfire code. If new plugs doesn't help, try swapping your coil packs around and see if the misfire follows. If it doesn't, and the misfire remains on cylinder 3, a compression test might be in order.
 

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WOW, What did I do to bring this happiness on???
Hey man, after a long battle with a lean condition, I was just putting my .02 in!

I have not found the specific threshold that the VW will trigger lean codes, but I can tell you that MOST of the vehicles I deal with have a threshold of about +10% for lean and usually about 3-5% for rich DTC. Also +10% is also a lot of added fuel.
I have read they will not trip until it reaches +/- 25, but I don't know. I can tell you MY car had a LTFT of +17 and did NOT throw a code. This was after my tune, when it became apparent my fuel pump was dying because it misfired constantly when trying to accelerate.

What is NOT normal is a LTFT of -2.3% at idle. Not much boost happening at idle, doubt this a boost leak issue.
Wait, what? I thought LTFT (or the multiplicative fuel trim) was what was happening under LOAD, not idle (STFT, or additive). Where are you getting your info from? :p


I almost NEVER see a vehicle with a negative LTFT, but I have also found many cars that have fuel trims all screwed up due to wrong or counterfeit MAF's that cause the total fuel management system to get fully confused and not be able to balance the fuel supply.
Yeah, I don't even know what to say about this. Plenty of cars have a slightly negative LTFT. And I do agree with you, that anything more than -10 or around that should be addressed.. I just don't agree with what you're saying is "normal".
 

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Yeah, that probably is the SAI you're hearing but it is probably unrelated. Mine is starting to go out.. well, it's been going out for about a year but hasn't thrown a code. it's just noisy.

I am a bit confused as to why you have 2 STFTs though lol. It was my understanding you only throw a CEL for fuel trims when they reach +/- 25. So, the misfire code is probably tripping the CEL, as I don't think your trims are wacky enough to throw it but are probably showing a soft code. But I don't know.

I'd be more concerned about the misfire code. If new plugs doesn't help, try swapping your coil packs around and see if the misfire follows. If it doesn't, and the misfire remains on cylinder 3, a compression test might be in order.
yes I can understand the confusion why there I put 2 STFT numbers...when I was looking at the live stream, the first number it showed was 3.1%...then it literally changed to 6.3%..it would go back and forth between those two numbers the whole time...so I included both numbers for the post..

@jfoj ok so for that FF data in the morning...do I need to clear the codes first before I obtain it? and also exactly how does this work, I start cruisng at 45mph like you said, and then what select freeze frame data and that will tell you at what RPM the code is coming from and also all the other data you need...

just want to make sure im gonna get the right data for ya
 

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Hey man, after a long battle with a lean condition, I was just putting my .02 in!



I have read they will not trip until it reaches +/- 25, but I don't know. I can tell you MY car had a LTFT of +17 and did NOT throw a code. This was after my tune, when it became apparent my fuel pump was dying because it misfired constantly when trying to accelerate.



Wait, what? I thought LTFT (or the multiplicative fuel trim) was what was happening under LOAD, not idle (STFT, or additive). Where are you getting your info from? :p




Yeah, I don't even know what to say about this. Plenty of cars have a slightly negative LTFT. And I do agree with you, that anything more than -10 or around that should be addressed.. I just don't agree with what you're saying is "normal".
I am going to be a bit lazy here and just comment below.

VW does have some OVERLY wide thresholds for triggering of codes, however, I would HOPE that VW does not trigger lean codes until 25%. This would be totally irresponsible on their part to allow a car to be SO far out of the proper fuel management range and not alert the driver. This would drastically impact fuel economy and emissions and I think 25% would be VERY far out as a trigger point, but I could be wrong. This would be like saying you have a hole in your pocket and you are dropping dimes as you walk vs. dropping quarters as you walk. There is a BIG difference between the 2!

I kind of figured your car was not likely stock when you mentioned boost leaks. Figured it may have an aftermarket tune of some sort. One thing you have to be VERY careful about is aftermarket tuners can widen the window where codes pop and sometimes they do this for their benefit if the tune is not ideal. So without knowing exactly what has been tuned/tweaked/changed, your reference may be different than a stock vehicle.

Also many tuners do a poor job. I had a German car that had a HIGHLY respected tune from a group that was 100% endorsed and backed by the manufacturer. I found significant problems with this tune and the arrogance of the tuner led me to a non manufacturer based tuner that can run circles around the "Tuner" that the manufacturer had a relationship with and backs 100%. So be careful what you end up with.

I am FULLY aware of soft failing fuel pumps in the German cars. I kind of recommend replacing the fuel pumps as a PM item before year 8 anyway.

Again, most of the proper operating cars.trucks I deal with on a daily basis have LTFT values in the 0% to +2.5 to +3.0% range. I get concerned if the LTFT is negative at all and if it is above +3.0%. I may not take immediate action on a vehicle that is just over 3.0%, but I will inform the owner there is likely and issue and to keep a close watch on it.

Anything negative I take action on.

Short Term Fuel Trims move about all the time. I rarely pay a lot of attention to them. Depends on the situation, I glance at them, mentally average them, then move on to LTFT figures.

LTFT values do matter at idle, they matter also at a cruise. What happens is almost all cars/trucks adapt the fuel delivery system and LTFT will adjust and be pretty static at least at idle. So although LTFT are multiplicative, do not think for a moment that STFT are only for idle. STFT values are always active and can also give clues. This is why I mentally average them. If they jump between 0 and +5% consistently, I figure the mid point is likely +2.5% for my purposes.

Not sure what you have done to your car, but my 100% stock 1.8t motor runs on average about between 2.0% and 2.5% LTFT at idle and while cruising. Yes, when I put my foot into thing, build boost, the LTFT will jump up momentarily, this is normal and as soon as I am back to a lightly loaded cruise or idle situation, fuel trims are back exactly where I expect them to be.

A consistent LTFT of -10% at idle is screwed up. You have 3 cars, do not know if they are all modified, but suggest you start your own casual poll of LTFT's and you soon will see what "normal" is. Also make sure the engines are running at the proper temp, around 205F at idle, if you have put a cooler thermostat in the engine, then this is likely why the LTFT values are consistently around -10%. Might be other problems and/or the tune?
 

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yes I can understand the confusion why there I put 2 STFT numbers...when I was looking at the live stream, the first number it showed was 3.1%...then it literally changed to 6.3%..it would go back and forth between those two numbers the whole time...so I included both numbers for the post..

@jfoj ok so for that FF data in the morning...do I need to clear the codes first before I obtain it? and also exactly how does this work, I start cruisng at 45mph like you said, and then what select freeze frame data and that will tell you at what RPM the code is coming from and also all the other data you need...

just want to make sure im gonna get the right data for ya
OK, back on track with your issue now.

First, with STFT, it is always moving. Just state the STFT range, for example 3.1% to 6.3%. Also please make sure to be specific about the number being either + or -. This does make a difference. FWIW, I assumed based on the values you originally provided this was the range for the STFT.

FF data will only be available while a code/codes are present. Some cars support multiple FF data, one for each code, some only have FF for the first code.

Go ahead get the FF data if available now, then clear the codes. When you clear codes, you will also clear any existing FF data. Note you will then have a red mark "x" on the Creader rather than a green check mark. This means the Emission Readiness Monitors have not cleared.

Then bring up the Live/Read Time data and verify the engine coolant temp. Depending on the CReader you can configure up to 4 live data events to view in the screen. Choose Engine Temp, STFT, LTFT and MPH.

Then once the engine is warmed up, gather the F/T figures and engine temp for idle and also a steady cruise of between 40-55 MPH and then post this info.

If you happen to trigger the CEL again, gather the FF data an post this back. But it may take a while before the CEL pops on again. With the FF data, please provide all info on the FF.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
what a day so far!!!!

ok so of course the guy who has the Creader at work is not there today, so cant obtain that data, prob not till Monday, which sucks because I really really wanted to work on this problem this weekend!!...I suppose I will work on the Shift Linkage/Tranny Fluid issue instead...

however, while I was at work I found this behemoth Snap-On Solus scanner...now im pretty sure that this thing is waaaayy better than the Creader, but I was short on time and really couldn't understand how to use it...I mean t of options to view da, and I went through all of them, but could not view the LTFT/STFT anywhere, prob overlooked it, if the guy with the Creader is not there Monday, I will have to use this thing, so any knowledge of this device would be very helpful,,

anyways while I had the Snap-On scanner hooked up, I looked at the codes, and surprisingly there were more than the original 2 I posted, were they there and the other scanner (s) didn't see them?..i don't know, prob these new codes just popped up, I fell however that the newest code is prob very related...here they are
in order

17608 P1200 Boost Control Valve Mechanical Malfuntion (new)

16684 P0300 Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire (new)

16687 P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire

17559 P1151 Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air Bank 1 Range 1 System
Too Lean

now just before it was P0303 and P0171...so according to the Snap-On Scanner P0171 doesn't exist, now im sure the system lean code with the snap-on is just real specific...but I dunno...

anyways that's what I learn today...
 

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what a day so far!!!!

ok so of course the guy who has the Creader at work is not there today, so cant obtain that data, prob not till Monday, which sucks because I really really wanted to work on this problem this weekend!!...I suppose I will work on the Shift Linkage/Tranny Fluid issue instead...

however, while I was at work I found this behemoth Snap-On Solus scanner...now im pretty sure that this thing is waaaayy better than the Creader, but I was short on time and really couldn't understand how to use it...I mean t of options to view da, and I went through all of them, but could not view the LTFT/STFT anywhere, prob overlooked it, if the guy with the Creader is not there Monday, I will have to use this thing, so any knowledge of this device would be very helpful,,

anyways while I had the Snap-On scanner hooked up, I looked at the codes, and surprisingly there were more than the original 2 I posted, were they there and the other scanner (s) didn't see them?..i don't know, prob these new codes just popped up, I fell however that the newest code is prob very related...here they are
in order

17608 P1200 Boost Control Valve Mechanical Malfuntion (new)

16684 P0300 Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire (new)

16687 P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire

17559 P1151 Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air Bank 1 Range 1 System
Too Lean

now just before it was P0303 and P0171...so according to the Snap-On Scanner P0171 doesn't exist, now im sure the system lean code with the snap-on is just real specific...but I dunno...

anyways that's what I learn today...

also I seen that my water temp was 203 degrees F and I did see the MAF @idle was 2.8 GPS
 

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Well you did make progress.

A few things, I do not know the Snap On tool directly, however, they are decent tools depending on how long ago it was updated.

Also on OBDII codes, they can clear by themselves then come back as well.

This is why at times you need to clear the codes and see which ones come back, but you need to LOG this info with date and mileage because codes by themselves are just clues and sometimes you have to piece the story together one code at a time.

The misfires could be lean misfires, however, I would suggest checking and possible replacement of spark plugs. Turbo/boosted engines are sensitive to spark plugs and plug gap due to the high combustion chamber pressures. Search the forum here for info on OE type plugs, best to try to run what the car came with as I recall, less likely to have issues.

The 5 digit codes are how VW displays them, with a translation to OBDII format, if there is a OBDII translation. It appears all the codes the Snap On tool picked up were generic OBDII code and not very specific VW codes. If there were very specific VW codes that did not translate directly to OBDII codes, the Snap On tool should have displayed them.

17559/P1151/004433 - Ross-Tech Wiki

17608/P1200/004608 - Ross-Tech Wiki

The 17608/P1200 is a pretty specific code, so I would take this one pretty seriously. Less likely for this to be a random or intermittent code. Search the forum here and on VW Vortex regarding N249 valve as well. Luckily I have not had any turbo boost valve issues on my car yet, so I cannot say first hand what other things/codes come along with it, but I would start by researching and focusing on this valve and code first.

Bottom line, anything that allows an air/vacuum leak into the engine after the MAF is suspect. Check the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose on top of the engine, also check the small black and white check valves carefully the white plastic will break up due to the engine heat. They may only fall apart on the bottom of the valve so check these carefully.

See if you can borrow the CReader and keep it with you for a few days so you can monitor codes, fuel trims and reset things as needed.

At least your engine temp seems good, would be helpful to make sure it stays around this temp when cruising.

MAF reading appears close for engine idle.

Good luck and report back.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I appreciate the help so much!! this weekend im going to go over the engine thoroughly for leaks and other stuff, and I will do research on how to check that valve

is there anything I can do or use besides a vacuum guage to help in the possible leak, I heard something about some sort of smoke test??...
 

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ok so I have been researching that N249 valve thing, it seems a lot of people say that the actual Mechanical failure is most of the time the DV, in which tcase there is a simple test for that, however I am having serious trouble finding out how to actually test the N249 valve, everyone seems to just want to bypass it and hook the DV straight to the intake manifold...I see though that can cause problems in itself, IE lean conditions and what not..which is what I have anyways..

so if anyone knows how to properly test the N249 valve that would be great
 

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@jfoj great news!!! I got the Creader from my buddy at work, so I can log the data for the next couple of days, I reset all the codes, so we will be able to see the freeze frame data when the code gets triggered....ill be posting soon enough though on the current STDT and LTFT and speed along with the MAF rate like you said..will do first thing in morning...
 

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What model CReader is it? CReader V or CReader VI?

Hopefully it is from the guy that has the Snap On tool and does not know actually how good the CReader is?

Search around on the N249, but be careful there is a lot of confusion about the N249 and N75, people seem to mix these up a lot.

Assume the N249 may need to be replaced, but there may be some other things that might trigger a N249 code other than a faulty N249 valve?

Fortunately I do not have much experience with either the N249 or N75 as I have yet to have these issues with my car and I do not run across a lot of the 1.8t motors on a daily basis.

But I can tell you that lean codes are usually an indicator of vacuum leaks if at idle or MAF/Fuel pump if off idle, but there could also be more to this as well. This is where Freeze Frame data is helpful to fully understand under what condition the lean code is triggered and what the threshold may be for the lean code. Also with a tool that can display Live/Real Time data, you can then determine if the engine is really running properly or do you have a pending and future problem based on reviewing fuel trim info. There are PLENTY of problem cars that do not have a CEL on, so it is wise to make sure things are optimal and operating where they belong while you have a tool that can display Live/Real Time data.
 

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its a Creader Professional CRP123....from what I seen on there website, one of the best!!!

ok so here is all the data from this morning, it will be in 3 segments

data @ No CEL at Idle

Data @ 50mph in 5th gear

data @ FF

Data @ CEL on @ Idle


@idle no CEL
TEMP 95 Deg Cel
STFT -3.1 to 0.0 (sometimes it would go as high as 1.6)
LTFT 0.0 (steady, never moved)
MAF 1.75 to 2.00 GPS

@50mph in 5th gear
STFT -5.5 to 7.0 (jumping all over the place between these two numbers, those were the max values though never seen it really go higher or lower than those two)
LTFT 0.0
MAF 11.0 to 19.0 GPS (in between those two constantly, those are max values either direction)

MAF GPS @ WOT in 3rd to redline about 140.0 GPS

FF Data After Code got triggered

Code that caused FF data to happen P0171
96 deg Cel
STFT -2.3 (makes no sense, as the values went below this @ 50mph)
LTFT 0.0
RPM 760 min

(This is all it gave me for FF data, no MAF reading or nothing :( )

idle @ CEL came on

temp 96 deg Cel
STFT -1.6 to 1.6 ( it really just flipped flopped between these two numbers was 0.8 once)
LTFT 0.0
MAF 1.75 GPS

well this is all the data, whats this all mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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