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Sloooooooow Down!!!!
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Discussion Starter #1
Something is going on that i cannot explain or understand with my 2003 automatic 1.8t with only 11000 miles-some of my mods are-apr chipped -2.5 turbo back exhaust-j valve-forge dv-abd tip-lower ic tube.

I am spiking on boost gauge to about 21-23. At wot it hits that 21-23 range and levels off at l7-18-slowly work its way down to 15 and then to 12 lbs ,and stays there till i hit 99 miles and hour and jumps up to 20 ,and stays there till i chicken out.

It does drop abbout 4-6 lbs in gear chages-but i dont understand what is going on at that high rate of speed-its like the turbo is kicking in too late. Or maybe its set up for too much top end. The nb has a lot of top end.

I have learned a lot about nb and turbos since i purchased the auto last may -the nb is running very good-but this i cannot explain-is this normal - if it is not what is wrong and how can i correct--?????

Now I have tried a couple different mufflers and run mufflerless and the same thing happens. Also does same thing with f & h valve
 

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a lot of top end? you're joking right? The 1.8T is a torque engine, plain and simple (well, with the stock turbo at least). Peak power is at 5500, and it drops pretty quickly after 6000.... thats not a lot of top end lol...

But anyway... your "problem" is completely normal, and is caused by the fact that the stock turbo is simply too inefficient to hold higher boost at high RPMs. The only solution is to go for a more efficient turbo, such as a garret 28R, 28RS, T3, T3/T4, etc...
 

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Sloooooooow Down!!!!
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks for info i wish i had your knowledge on turbos-i am a novice at this but a learning novice - ive put in most of nb's mods.

My son and i have been in boat racing for years-. With 270 hp outboard on 19-20 ft---489-540 lb boats. Boat racing we know a lot about but autos we have not messed with a lot. We have draged race and most of the time circle race a lot of different boats-including bass boats. When our friend was killed years ago in a boat race we were in we gave it up.

My nb is not bad on top end-that did seem to improve with muflerless-i think it is strong on top end or another way to put plenty strong for me. In order to be able to put pss9 coil overs on(not installed yet) i had to put spacers on because of my rims off set ,and that cause a tire or two to go out of balance a little. Ive got 15mm spacers but tire place here is having hard time getting tires balanced with spacers on. So at higher speeds this effects handeling.

Then its normal to drop off to 12-14 -then after 99 mph hit 20 very quickly like its kicking in at that speed and stay there till i let up.

According to my g tech which i believe is a good tool at least to tell me whats happening -I need a little more low end-- Nb most of the time -- 60ft around 5.32-5.52 and 60 mph around 5.5-5.7. I did come in with better low end figures with muffler on but then the mid and top was little off.

Like you say-so much you can get out of k03 and i probably reaching that point. The larger turbo will probably help and it wont be long till i have one installed by apr. But then you have more hp and torque--and you have to still contend with front wheel drive...

Man its never ending. I thought cars would be cheaper way to go than boats but i am about to change my mind.

When I got this nb I had no thought of going the performance route-it was just a good looking 2003 nb with 3300 miles. But oh my how things have changed.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Have patience with me:

I still dont understand if the ko3 is infficient to hold high boost at high rpm-why does my nb at 99 mpg and according to my rpm gauge near 5900 rpm go quickly from 14 to 20 boost like going into another gear, and holds at 20 with good pick up till I let off.

Its hard to believe but at 99 mph and going to 20 lbs its like a passing gear that surges nb quickly forward and really picks up good speed. I dont know-- i wish some .org members were close and drive this car and see first hand whats going on.

My automatic trans is sensitive to performance changes-could something be going on with the at. I have notice that if i manual change the gears from 1-4 the nb seems to act and perform better. That is hard to do because you can pass up a gear very easy


I might add that the apr dealer in louisville ky wants me to bring it in so they can check a few things, and put it on the dyno.
 

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Keep It Real
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Scarab_Beetle said:
a lot of top end? you're joking right? The 1.8T is a torque engine, plain and simple (well, with the stock turbo at least). Peak power is at 5500, and it drops pretty quickly after 6000.... thats not a lot of top end lol...

But anyway... your "problem" is completely normal, and is caused by the fact that the stock turbo is simply too inefficient to hold higher boost at high RPMs. The only solution is to go for a more efficient turbo, such as a garret 28R, 28RS, T3, T3/T4, etc...
With all due respect, what you are referencing has nothing to do with top end power or Red Rider's problem, the 1.8T being a turbo charged engine characteristically has a flat torque curve as appose to a peak torque curve.

Like most forced induction engines the 1.8T delivers it's power throughout the majority of it's power band and unlike say an S2000 or Integra type "R" which are both normally aspirated, the 1.8T doesn't require those high rev's of 8 to 10 thousand rpm in order to get the job done, it's power is available at almost any rpm with in it's rev range.

When someone says a car/engine has a lot of top end, they are typically referring to power/performance in the high speed range and yes, the 1.8T most definately has this with room to spare.
 

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Keep It Real
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Red Rider said:
Something is going on that i cannot explain or understand with my 2003 automatic 1.8t with only 11000 miles-some of my mods are-apr chipped -2.5 turbo back exhaust-j valve-forge dv-abd tip-lower ic tube.

I am spiking on boost gauge to about 21-23. At wot it hits that 21-23 range and levels off at l7-18-slowly work its way down to 15 and then to 12 lbs ,and stays there till i hit 99 miles and hour and jumps up to 20 ,and stays there till i chicken out.


It does drop abbout 4-6 lbs in gear chages-but i dont understand what is going on at that high rate of speed-its like the turbo is kicking in too late. Or maybe its set up for too much top end. The nb has a lot of top end.

I have learned a lot about nb and turbos since i purchased the auto last may -the nb is running very good-but this i cannot explain-is this normal - if it is not what is wrong and how can i correct--?????

Now I have tried a couple different mufflers and run mufflerless and the same thing happens. Also does same thing with f & h valve
Problem #1 is that you are drastically over boosting the K03 turbo and have seriously exceeded it's efficiency range, this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Many people are doing this and it is not the correct way to get smooth, consistant, dependable power out of the 1.8T, this is an ill advised shortcut used to avoid the expense of approaching this properly.

The K03 is designed for "Peak Boost Levels" not to exceed 15psi and a "Sustained Boost level" not to exceed 12psi.

Problem #2 is that it's likely the software was designed to be used with the stock N75 valve, many times in these cases an N75 "J" or "H" etc. will cause adverse effects and/or over boost situations.

You say the boost level tapers off until you reach 99mph, it is normal for boost to decrease as you approach redline....
Question: Does this boost jump at 99mph happen while maintaining the same accelerator position or are you mashing the pedal by the time you reach 99mph?
 

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Sloooooooow Down!!!!
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Thanks for info too cold

yes i was referring to power/performance in high speed range.

it is happening while maintaning the same acc. position.

the stock valve is the f valve-it does cause surging and is about 1-2 lb less on boost gauge but also does same thing at 99mph.

the h valve is spiking at about 17-but for some reason the engine power fades off and comes back on under sustained acc. i think i am having a problem with this valve. i may do some more testing with h valve.

i do have bc over solution kit that can lower the boost spiking-just have not installed it.

the j valve is the smoothest and according to g tech gives me a better quarter mile time-by seat of my pants it seems like the j gives better throttle response and better mid and top end, but it causes high spikes.
 

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Too Many Dubs....
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If the car is chipped, whats the disadvantage of just scrapping the N75 and doing a manual controller like www.boostvalve.com ? From my understanding, alot of the chips change the upper boost limit to like 20something PSI, meaning the N75 doesnt really do a whole hell of alot anyhow. With a manual you can just set it to something like 15psi. Only problem I have heard about them is with the K03 being so tiny that they can make the boost build too fast causing exessive wheelspin..
 

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Sloooooooow Down!!!!
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Discussion Starter #9
I seem to be having problems with the valves and ive been giving it serious thought on getting boost valve kit and eliminate n75. I think you still leave n75 plugged in and zip tie it some where.

Since i have the boost valve over solution kit i may give it a try using the j valve and see what happens when i reduce the spikes.

I think my boost is not coming in soon enough-in fact it is a litte eratic with my auto trans and does as it pleases. So therefore it may be , one day, good for me to try the complete bv kit that has the two springs one for stock and other for chipped, and by pass the n75 and put me in control.

But since i will probably have a ko4 in the near future i am hesitating. But problems like i am having bother me and i like to get down to solving the problem. and in doing so will probably help when i get the ko4.

Dont get me wrong my nb is running good and i think it is a minor problem that can be solved to make nb run even better.

I do beleve like too cold says that i am spiking to high--so any info will be appreciated.

It is still odd to me why at 99mph under sustained throttle the boost quickly jumps from 12-14 to 20.
 

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Keep It Real
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Providing there are no leaks or malfunctioning/failed components, I would say that your problem is with the chip/software program.

I personally have never been a fan of APR and have read many threads where people began having issues after installing one of their chips.

The jump in boost at 99mph while holding the throttle steady and the surging is absolutely not normal, if these problems that you are experiencing were not present prior to installing the APR software then it is likely the result of a chip that wasn't designed properly for your setup.

After installing a software upgrade etc., you should not have to correct surging or other problems by way of the over used and incorrect *Band-Aid approach* such as replacing or adding parts like a non-stock N75 valve or manual boost controller soley for the purpose of correcting difficiencies/negative effects caused by software or other upgrades.

My suggestion to you Red Rider is to do one of the following things:

1. Scrap the APR chip and contact GIAC and obtain the proper software for your setup.

2. Ask GIAC if they have software for your car equipped with a K04 and if so, upgrade to that and a K04 turbo.

3. Do not over boost the turbo, always! stay with in the design and efficiency ranges of the part.
 

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Red Rider said:
I seem to be having problems with the valves and ive been giving it serious thought on getting boost valve kit and eliminate n75. I think you still leave n75 plugged in and zip tie it some where.

Since i have the boost valve over solution kit i may give it a try using the j valve and see what happens when i reduce the spikes.

I think my boost is not coming in soon enough-in fact it is a litte eratic with my auto trans and does as it pleases. So therefore it may be , one day, good for me to try the complete bv kit that has the two springs one for stock and other for chipped, and by pass the n75 and put me in control.

But since i will probably have a ko4 in the near future i am hesitating. But problems like i am having bother me and i like to get down to solving the problem. and in doing so will probably help when i get the ko4.

Dont get me wrong my nb is running good and i think it is a minor problem that can be solved to make nb run even better.

I do beleve like too cold says that i am spiking to high--so any info will be appreciated.

It is still odd to me why at 99mph under sustained throttle the boost quickly jumps from 12-14 to 20.
The N75 valve is not the problem as long as you are using the one that the chip was developed with, I would not recommend changing a bunch of other parts in an attempt to cure these ill's.

When trouble shooting something like this you want to back track to where the problem(s) began, K03's boost peak must be limited to 15psi or 16psi MAXIMUM and if this doesn't yield enough juice, then the correct next step is to go to a larger turbo.

If the parts used in an upgrade are designed correctly for a particular car setup and all else is in sync, then the issues described wouldn't exist and the ill advised implementation of parts for the purpose of correcting adverse effects caused by the original upgrade, wouldn't be necessary.
 

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Performance Freak
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Wait... is the car shifting into a higher gear at 99mph, so the boost now jumps back up to 1.3bar or whatever the "chip" is tuned to?

Example:
Holding revs in 3rd gear, approaching redline, boost tapering to 10psi, approaching 99mph.
Trans shifts to 4th gear, 4500revs, 20psi and you feel the car continue to accelerate?

That would be normal, the boost spikes after it shifts to give maximum power.

The "chips" are usually tuned using the stock N75, but many have found (including me) that there may be surging using this valve, and changing it (N75J in my case) makes the power band very smooth and eliminates the surging.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for info

This may be what is happening-it is like shifting to another gear at 99

In other words off the line under wot, not letting up ,it seems like a shift in gear at 99 and boost goes from 12 to 20. I thought the nb trans would shift to 4th before reaching 99. Ill check it again and make sure.

No doubt the nb runs smoother with j valve. But it does produce some high spikes but so does the f valve.. What are your boost numbers.
 

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Keep It Real
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Red Rider, given the conditions that you described as follows in your earlier posts: "It is still odd to me why at 99mph under sustained throttle the boost quickly jumps from 12-14 to 20", with sustained throttle at about 99mph your car should not be switching gears or showing massive boost fluctuations as you described unless maybe your sustained throttle position is WOT.

However, allow me to clarify, if you are maintaining a constant civilized throttle position for moderate acceleration all the way out past 99mph then there should be no drastic boost spike like the one you described, especially if you are already in high gear when the spike takes place.

The fact that the engine does not opperate correctly/smoothly since the new over-boosting chip was installed regardless of which N75 vavles is in place, this tells me and I reiterate, the software is the problem.
 

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Performance Freak
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There's no software problem, his car is shifting into top gear, and he has it floored at the time.
Those of us who drive 5 speeds know when we're shifting, but with an auto, he is only figuring this out now.

The "overboosting" chip is the industry standard, so don't worry about that.
APR, GIAC, Revo, they all boost 20-22psi spike, hold @18psi, and taper off to 10-12psi at redline.
Will this shorten the life of the turbo, probably, if you see this boost in every gear everyday.
I know I rarely see that boost level in my daily commute, maybe a couple times around 15-18psi when I need to accelerate for a few seconds.
 

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Too Cold NB1.8T said:
With all due respect, what you are referencing has nothing to do with top end power or Red Rider's problem, the 1.8T being a turbo charged engine characteristically has a flat torque curve as appose to a peak torque curve.

Like most forced induction engines the 1.8T delivers it's power throughout the majority of it's power band and unlike say an S2000 or Integra type "R" which are both normally aspirated, the 1.8T doesn't require those high rev's of 8 to 10 thousand rpm in order to get the job done, it's power is available at almost any rpm with in it's rev range.

When someone says a car/engine has a lot of top end, they are typically referring to power/performance in the high speed range and yes, the 1.8T most definately has this with room to spare.

"I am spiking on boost gauge to about 21-23. At wot it hits that 21-23 range and levels off at l7-18-slowly work its way down to 15 and then to 12 lbs ,and stays there till i hit 99 miles and hour and jumps up to 20 ,and stays there till i chicken out."

That sure sounds like the problem he was talking about to me... WHat I quoted was what I was referring to in my first post in this thread... as to the spike up to 20 at 99 mph, I agree with NJTurbo this seems to be a shift to me, which would make sense. Since I don't have an auto I'm not sure what the different loads in each gear will do to affect boost. Red, does the rpm drop at 99mph corresponding to the spike in boost?

And we can battle on semantics, but when I hear top end, that means top of the rev range, which is where the 1.8T peters out. I'm not saying its bad for doing that, but thats just how it is. Compared to a GM 2.0 s/c, or VR6, or Honda B-series, the 1.8T just does not have top end. THe top end that you refer to has absolutely no way to quantify, so in that sense its pretty useless even using that.

And while it IS fact that you are, by Borg-Warner's specs, overspinning the turbo by pushing it more than 15 psi, it is at this point no more than OPINION that this is not a reliable way of obtaining power. It is opinion because as of yet there is no thorough empirical evidence that these turbos cannot hold up to the abuse, and in fact there are MANY examples to the contrary. Mine being one, i have spun to 20 psi for over 20K miles now, and have even overspun it farther because of a few boost leaks that I was unaware of until hooking up vag to find negative pressure deviation codes.

I also probably spend twice as much time at WOT than most on this forum because during the drag season, I am at the track twice a week at least, with anywhere from 3-12 runs to 100mph each night. Not to mention my somewhat "spirited" commute to work.

Many more on Vortex's 1.8T forum have gone more mileage running even more boost than I do, for many more wide open track runs. One that I know of has over 100,000 miles, 60,000 of which are chipped running over 20 psi of boost.

So yes, technically speaking, you are exceeding Borg-Warner's safety recommendations for the turbo, which is something to keep in mind. However, given the low failure rate of the K-series turbos, its not something that I, or very many others worry about. And frankly, if you're that worried about breaking a turbo that can easily by secured for $100 off ebay or vortex, or new for a bit more than the cost of performance software, then you're in the wrong hobby.

As to APR's software, just like any other software, the majority of problems after getting chipped 99% of the time come from something else amiss. Having worked on a lot of SRT4's as a dealer tech, and a multitude of friend's projects, I've seen how cobbled-together and jury-rigged some setups can be... if the system is not in working order, clearly the software is not going to be 100%. Red, if you believe that it may be a software problem, contact APR for technical support before going and blowing more money on new software.
 

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Keep It Real
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Semantics has absolutely nothing to do with it, the fact is that in the Automotive Industry "Top End" has always been the term widely used to reference upper end -Power- not -RPM- and 1.8t top end power is exactly what Red Rider was talking about when he used the term "Top End", -Revs- or -RPM Range- are two of the common widely known terms used when referring to the number of -Revolutions Per Minute- that an engine, turbo turbine or alternator etc. is able to spin.

Anyone who chooses to run a part such as a turbo outside of it's design specification by over boosting it (In an attempt to save money), best of luck.

The money aspect of a possible parts/turbo failure in itself is of nominal concern to me, it's only one of many considerations when I see people unnecessarily push the envelope in matters of component abuse:

1. A turbo is already under enough stress without magnifying it by over-boosting it and dramatically increasing it's stress beyond recommended limits.

2. I like to set things up properly regardless of cost and reaching for more power by over-boosting a turbo to save money and/or because it's easier is neither correct or a sound approach, the only plus here is to initially soothe ones bank account balance, if that is ones primary goal, then like someone else said, a change of hobbies would probably be best.

3. A turbo like any part can fail in it's stock environment, however a turbo like any part is more likely to fail when exposed to an abusive application such as over-boosting not to mention other adverse effects that may arise from this practise.

4. Turbo replacement on a 1.8t can be 5 to 8 hours plus the cost of gaskets, seals, fluids and of course the turbo, many say that they get their parts off of eBay for cheap, if this is the case then it would seem that those same people should have little trouble obtaining the correct parts (larger turbo etc.) in order to gain the power they desire without over-boosting/abusing parts and perform a proper upgrade at a low cost from that same parts (eBay etc.)source.

There are always exceptions meaning, just because the guy down the street had no problems in 20k or so doesn't mean that you will be so lucky.

People are welcome to their own choices in these matters and I truly wish them the best, however if problems are experienced or things go South as a result, be prepared to bite the bullet.

Once again, best of luck and happy dubbing.

P.S. >I do have a 1.8t automatic as one of my cars.<
 
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