VW Beetle Forum banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hello folks.

I'm a first time poster, be gentle with me.

I have a 2008 beetle convert, 2.5 gas Automatic. It is my daughter's car, who is away at college. I was about to do the 10K oil change, and when I pulled the skid plate I found a mess. After some cleaning I chased the oil leak and think it's coming from the vacuum pump.

The bottom half of the vaccum pump plate is 'wet' and appears to be the highest point of oil. The leak is very slow, and other than being dirty (remember she's do for oil filter) the dipstick didn't show any lowering of level.

The car drives and brakes perfectly.

Seems from looking here and googling about that the most common problem is the seal which is just behind the plate.

Fixes seem to range from replacement of pump ($900 parts and labor if someone else does it for me), or doing a delete kit myself.

I'm 'kinda' handy working on cars. This is my only German car that I've ever done anything on, and it's a beetle so I've been continually amazed at how hard it is to get to certain things. Even little easy things like changing a battery. I don't even want to talk about what I think of the headlight assembly and how easily the harness becomes lose once you replace a bulb....grumble.

Anyway...point is, the car is difficult to work on in my opinion, but mostly because of space issues.

I don't really want to try to remove the pump myself.

That being said, I also don't want to deal with the delete kit for the same reason.

However, I don't want to give someone else $900 :)

So I started looking for a replacement seal/gasket/oring that goes behind that plate with the 4 torx screws.

After some looking I found this rebuild kit:

https://www.rkxtech.com/products/rkx-vw-audi-2-5l-vacuum-pump-reseal-rebuild-kit?variant=35818651858

The rebuild kit includes both the pear shaped seal/o-ring as well as the engine side gasket. Obviously the intention is you completely remove the pump, replace the seals and put it back...

However, I get the impression from looking around that the engine side gasket isn't likely the problem.

So I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions on:

Do not remove pump, remove plate from side of pump, remove o-ring, clean groove, clean cover plate - install new o-ring from $40 rebuild kit, re-install plate.

Anyone ever attempt?

1) is the pump full of oil? If so, I may drain oil before starting (was going to change it anyway)

2) anyone who has tried it have any feedback?

3) anyone know a place to simply buy the seal, I mean, $40 rebuild kit is better than the other options, but simply buying what has to be a $5-$15 seal sound even better...considering I'm not planning on using that other gasket.

4) if the pump had otherwise failed beyond a simple oil leak/oring problem, what would my symptoms be? The car runs, drives, and brakes fine. It's a 2008, but only has 68K on it.

appreciate any input you have.

thanks,

Ray

PS - I did some searching on the forum, but didn't see anyone who just replaced the oring, if it's here and I missed it, I apologize.
 

·
μολὼν λαβ
Joined
·
213 Posts
I pulled the o-ring seal on the cover plate, cleaned everything up real good, carefully ran a bead of RTV silicone inside the groove, let it set up for a few minutes, reinstalled and it hasn't leaked since. Don't remember how long ago I did it, but I'd guess at least a year ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,616 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yep, I saw these. The "easiness" of pulling that pump is much less so in my beetle, not sure what he was working on. As to his analysis of failure types: I have no braking issues. I have no reason to suspect the engine side gasket is leaking. I guess the real question is, is the pump supposed to be filled with oil during normal operation? If so, then I likely just have a seal issue on that plate. If not, then there is oil inside the pump where it should not be, and the pump should be replaced or deleted.

Does anyone know if there is SUPPOSED TO BE oil inside that pump?

Ray

Ps - I'm no mechanic. I can do fluid changes, and swap parts when instructions are available, so sometimes I have to ask stupid questions. The only saving grace is that i ask them in open forum so hopefully someone else doesn't have to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
Looking at this video by Ms Motor Service/Pierburg (the company that makes the pump for VW); assuming it is a single vane vacuum pump, like the one shown... it does seem to use oil to lubricate the assembly and that is why it leaks, when the seals fail.

Look at 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVda9uurlkQ

Oil is also shown; coming out of the pump, when the cover is take off, in this replacement video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8s1y3RIG7s

Note: they "rebuild" the pump; by replacing the base/cover seals, this is assuming the pump isn't damaged or not working as it should. If the pump is ok; new seals, seems like a cost effective solution.

The base seal; seems to be commonly available but the cover seal is not but aftermarket vendors are making their own or sourcing them from the oem (Pierburg):

VW part #: 07K145215A Base Vacuum Pump Gasket

Many of these "kits" seem overpriced, being sold on amazon/ebay but the Spulen delete kit is not much more and maybe a better long term solution:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=ev....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.123....0.tMdUeiYYaz4

The Spulen delete kit; would be another long term option and it is cheaper than a new pump, plus you would never have to deal with it again.

info and install videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=+Spulen+Vacuum+Pump+Delete+Kit+

https://www.google.com/search?q=spu...57j69i60l2.14918j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Those that have installed this delete kit around here; we have heard positive feedback from their install and no negative comments about it so far.

http://newbeetle.org/forums/2-5-lit...m-pump-failure-pump-delete-solutions-usp.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks, that tells me everything I need to know. The oil should be there and it recirculates back (with a working pump). With no hard brake pedal, I'm going to reseal. Best case, im done for a couple years. Worst case, it leaks faster after reseal and i order delete kit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
Sounds good; let us know how things work out for you and if the reseal route, is successful!

:goodjob:

The seal kits on amazon; seemed to have mostly positive reviews with one person, having the pump start to leak again. This could be installer error or things not fully sealed as they should. :confused:

I hope your install goes well! :)
 

·
μολὼν λαβ
Joined
·
213 Posts
Does anyone know if there is SUPPOSED TO BE oil inside that pump?
Yes, there it supposed to be oil in the pump. The oil lubes the sliding steel rotor vane that rotates inside a steel housing. It's not full of oil, but in order to lube the pump, a little oil is being injected into the pump as long as the motor is turning. When the outer o-ring seal fails, that oil leaks out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So, a little progress report. Rkx was sold out of their kit(gaskets) for the 2.5. So I bought a gasket off eBay from a seller abcmart. Their gasket did not fit my pump. See attached pic, too big. It's actually an o ring. I went back to the listing and now see it lists the 2007 beetle 2.5, not the 2008. I missed this but would have guess ed it was the same. They listed many other models (jetta, etc of 2.5) guess there is a difference. They seem willing to let me return it.

Rkx is now back in stock so buying that.

Getting the plate off the pump requires removing the air box for the cab side torx screws. It requires a low profile torx ratchet for the front top screw as their is a hose in the way. Also some basic cursing about the space efficiency of German engineers. Never again with VW.

Hopefully have the gasket Monday. Till then she sits in the garage.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Will do. Actually looked back, and this part was on the supported list, so buyer beware...

I have the 100C pump....clearly in the list on abcmart listing:

Brand New Brake Booster Vacuum Pump.
Tech Note: The Brake Booster Vacuum Pump very common leaks oil. The original O ring with Flat - V groove design, O ring fail oil l leaks over time. By using MotorKing Upgraded O ring will last long that OE design.
OEM Ref Number:
07K145100B / 07K 145 100B
07K145100C / 07K 145 100C
07K145100H / 07K 145 100H
07K 145 215 A / 07K 145 215 A
724807300 / 7 24807 30 0
Please see compatibility chart.
Fits to:
2007-2010 Volkswagen Beetle
2013-2014 Volkswagen Beetle
2006 Volkswagen Beetle 2.5
2012-2013 Volkswagen Beetle Base
2012-2013 Volkswagen Beetle Comfortline
2012-2013 Volkswagen Beetle Highline
2012 Volkswagen Beetle Premiere
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Sportline
2012 Volkswagen Beetle 2.5 L5
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Base CBTA
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Comfortline CBTA
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Highline CBTA
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Base CBUA
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Comfortline CBUA
2014 Volkswagen Beetle Highline CBUA
2012-2013 Volkswagen Golf
2010-2014 Volkswagen Golf Base
2010-2014 Volkswagen Golf Comfortline
2010-2012 Volkswagen Golf Highline
2011-2013 Volkswagen Golf Sportline
2010-2014 Volkswagen Golf Trendline
2010-2011 Volkswagen Golf 2.5 L5
2014 Volkswagen Golf 2.5 L5
2008-2014 Volkswagen Jetta
2005-2008 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
2009-2013 Volkswagen Jetta Comfortline
2009-2013 Volkswagen Jetta Highline
2008-2010 Volkswagen Jetta S
2008-2013 Volkswagen Jetta SE
2008 Volkswagen Jetta SEL
2010-2013 Volkswagen Jetta SEL
2011-2013 Volkswagen Jetta Sportline
2009-2010 Volkswagen Jetta Trendline
2006 Volkswagen Jetta Value Edition
2007 Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg Edition
2007 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5 L5
2011 Volkswagen Jetta S 2.5 L5
2009 Volkswagen Jetta SEL 2.5 L5
2014 Volkswagen Jetta CBTA
2012-2013 Volkswagen Jetta S CBTA
2014 Volkswagen Jetta CBUA
2012-2013 Volkswagen Jetta S CBUA
2012 Volkswagen Passat Comfortline
2012-2013 Volkswagen Passat S
2012-2013 Volkswagen Passat SEL
2013 Volkswagen Passat Trendline
2012-2014 Volkswagen Passat 2.5 L5
2013 Volkswagen Passat Comfortline 2.5 L5
2012-2013 Volkswagen Passat Highline 2.5 L5
2012-2013 Volkswagen Passat SE 2.5 L5
2012-2013 Volkswagen Passat SEL Premium 2.5 L5
2012 Volkswagen Passat Trendline 2.5 L5
2006-2009 Volkswagen Rabbit
2013 Audi TT Quattro 2.5 L5
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Update...i ordered the rkx kit a few days ago. However today I was in the garage getting the o ring I was going to send back to the eBay seller. I t's been in the very cold garage for days. I looked at it and pulled out the original gasket. Side by side compared the diameter and circumference, they looked identical though clearly the new o ring was a thick rubber o ring and the OE was thin flat hard plastic gasket.... but same looking size, so for grins I tried to fit it again. Fit perfectly. I'm guessing it was warm before and I was stretching it when fitting it on. Now after days in 30 degree garage it's less pliable and didn't stretch. If you bought one and it was too large try putting it in the fridge for a couple hours... then make sure you are not stretching it when fitting it on. See pic of fit. It went on without effort this time.

So the kit came with 10mm hex bolts and washers to replace torx. My torx were fine but I used the new ones because they were easier to deal with in tight spaces. I torqued down to 7 ft lbs. Took it for a 5 min drive.

My problem is that there is residual oil in places I can't clean out. And I can't tell if the tiny bit of oil I dripped after my 5 min drive is new or old still making it's way out.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong...i can't see under the vacuum pump but using my phone as a periscope I thought I saw a hole exposing the teeth of the flywheel just under the pump...if oil was dripping in there it explains the total mess I was seeing on the bottom side of the car where the fly wheel is also exposed (I picture an oil tornado). In addition there appear to be small areas where oil has collected engine side under the pump. I can only do so much to get a rag in there with grown up hands....i know there is still some in there.


I'm hoping a couple of 20 min drives around town will clear out the old stuff. So I can see if she has stopped dripping.


Do you guys check dip stick levels on these things warm or stone cold? My dodge truck I check warm, but off. Given that I'm watching oil, I want to get the most accurate reading. So far it seems to read higher when warm....
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
24 miles of small trips around town (5-7 miles per trip)... here is my oil leak. The pic with no oil on the rim was 20 min of idle in park, followed by sitting 20 minutes. The 1ml of oil in the container (estimated) came out while sitting off. Then about an hour later took it for a 20 min city drive (10 miles). About same amount, 1 ml Clearly oil is still dripping down, but still not sure if it's new or old oil still making its way down various crevices. At this rate of leak many might advise it's not of concern, and the fix worked. Time will tell. I really hate seeing any oil because in my mind it's still a time bomb waiting too leak worse.

So for anyone considering it...

Spent about $50 on an o ring kit that included hex bolts for pump plate. The seller (abcmart) calls it a motor king o ring. I'm sure they make $48 per sale but that's what you pay for some one else to find what fits.

You can pull the plate w/o pulling the pump. On an AT beetle it helps a lot to pull the air box. Moving the battery won't help unless you are going to pull the battery tray (I didnt do either).

Low profile torx ratchet bits are a must to work around hoses. A thick Torque wrench will also present problems. I bought a low profile set for $30 on amazon. Some gentle manipulation will be needed on the rubber hose running in front of the pump, if even low profile ratchets are used from that angle. Just a gentle squeeze while you ratchet. A 3rd hand helps during this.

The hex bolts are not strictly needed if you are careful removing the originals, their are more low profile options to work with on the hex in most amateur tool boxes though. Be careful removing the bottom torx screws, you can't really get at them at a right angle so it would be easy to strip when breaking the first turn.

Use lint free cloth and clean the mating surface of pump. Clean the groove the seal cones out of.

I used 7ft lbs on the bolts.

Clean as much oil as you can, but if like me your oil is in the wells under the engine side of the pump, you aren't getting it all out without pulling the pump. I don't like use of solvents or sprayers blindly or broadly sprayed under the hood. Too many other things that could become problems because of overspray.

That's it. Some would advise to simply put sealant in there. I hate sealer. I hate removing it in subsequent repairs. I've spent too much time removing it from differential covers, and auto trans pans, when gaskets were available. If I have to replace this o ring every 2 years it will be easily removed... sealant can be hard to clean off. Especially parts still on engine. However, it's really cheap and readily available, compared to this o ring.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
One last item of note for anyone having this oil leak. I mentioned earlier I thought there was an opening in the bell housing where you can see the flywheel/flex plate teeth, and that oil may be going down there, so I really will not be able to clean residual oil...I though I saw one using phone as periscope...well...found a photo of a beetle AT...pic attached.

Note the exposed wheel teeth just to the left of the gear selector, the flywheel is exposed. Pretty sure that sits just under and in front of vacuum pump...some oil is going to get caught in that well above it, but as gravity does it's job, but some is going to end up on that flywheel.

This explains a lot about why we see the symptom under the car that we do...even after cleaning the bottom of the car to troubleshoot...if only looking from the bottom everything seems to be coming out of the AT housing.

-Ray
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,616 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Once I discovered the eBay o ring kit fit perfectly, I used that. It included only the plate o ring, and hex bolts.

However I now have the rkx kit in hand as it finally arrived (ordered when I thought eBay kit was wrong size).

Last night I tried a test. I inserted a piece of writing paper under pump, and ran idle for 20 minutes. Waited 20 minutes to cool and removed paper. I found less than a tear drop of oil on the paper. The teardrop was under the engine side of pump, passenger compartment (rear) side. It seems at least plausible that I am leaking oil back there. When I ran this test while idling I STILL had a bit of oil coming out of the seam where engine and transmission meet, just next to holes exposing teeth of fly wheel.

My leak had slowed quite a bit by just replacing plate gasket with eBay o ring. A droplet under the car after 20 min city drive. There is zero oil pooled in the wells under the pump, front/ bumper side. I can't see any on the back cabin side, but it's hard or impossible to look w/o pulling the pump. I think I was leaking mostly at the plate and fixed that.

That being said I thing I have at least one or two remaining leaks. An eye droplet of oil on the paper after 20 min idle seems to indicate small leak engine side. However... where is this oil coming from in the seam, if I caught the oil in my paper.

I'm going to run my paper test again. 1 fail is an anomaly, 2 failures are a suspect, 3 failures are a trend. If it happens on test 2, the pump has to come all the way out, full rkx kit(I may not replace the plate o ring, it is working and I'm concerned the thick o ring reshaped the plate, seems unlikely at 7-8ft lbs though.

If I go there it won't be till January. Daughter is back from school next week, and will drive it for a month. It's a really slow leak now, fine for daily use. I'll check on oil level weekly in case it accelerates again.

I was really avoiding the complete removal, that engine bay is ridiculous. I'm not pulling the battery if I can help it. I got the plate off with battery in, air box out. There are some hoses and a metal line I hope I can work around. Everyone demos videos of this on a jetta which seems to lack this hose routing.


The RKX kit contents included plate gasket, engine side, and small turquoise o ring shown in video here I think. If paper test 2 fails, it's all going in, at the end of January.

If there is still oil then... I'm thinking it's rear main seal, for which there is no easy fix.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
87 Posts
It may take a while (weeks or months) for any accumulated oil inside the various housings to drain down.

The key is to monitor the engine oil level. That will tell you if you need to be concerned about leakage.

Rusty
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well - The kiddo drove the car for about a month while she was home from college.

Several hundred miles later - the leak is so insignificant I'm not worried about it.

No notable difference in the dip stick. It is still leaking a very small amount of oil...a 'drop' - fractions of a teaspoon a day.

I'm almost certain that the oil is now only coming from the engine side of the pump. Since replacing the seal I no longer see any evidence of oil on the outside plate, like I did before. If I get a mirror and a light I can see just the smallest gleam of oil at the screws/torx that mount it to the engine, and just a bit of oil under it, but not anything like before.

I'll continue to keep an eye on it.

I do have a new problem (I really hate this car) but I'll ask about that in another thread.

thanks to all those that participated.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top